The almighty save!

[jim]

Sometime in the past 20 years, the Save has become the coveted stat in all of baseball. Only the anointed are allowed to pursue them, and apparently it's the managers job to do everything in his power to get as many opportunities to that special person regardless of the risks he plays with the actual outcome of the game.

Case in point, last nights usage of Izzy. In the bottom of the 8th, the Cards take a 2 run lead which causes the save machinery to start cranking up. Izzy warms up in the bullpen to pitch the 9th, despite the fact that the inning will start with 2 lefties and you currently have a lefty in the game.

Once the score reaches 5-1, the save machinery shuts down. Izzy takes a seat, and Flores bats for himself.

Dunn leads off with a double, which means the save machinery kicks back into full gear with Izzy getting up for a second time. Rather than letting Flores finish pitching to Griffey and bringing in Izzy to face Encarnacion and Hatteberg, the save machinery dictates that Izzy will remain in the bullpen until the save flag has been raised. Then, and only then, is Izzy allowed to finish off the game.

What the heck? By the time you have gotten a reliever up for a second time, you aren't saving his arm for the next day by not bringing him into the game. Whether you use him or not is irrelevant at this point in regards to saving him, because the act of getting up and sitting down and getting back up again is not easy. Relievers call this the "dry heaves", which should give you some idea of what they think of it.

If all that mattered was winning the game, what should have happened was one of two things. My choice regardless would have been to let Flores pitch to the lefties, and then bring Izzy in regardless of whether the save flag had been triggered. The other choice would have been to just bring Izzy into the game to start the 9th.

It's all driven by the allmighty save stat. It's absolutely maddening to me.

[ghostrunner]

I think you're overthinking it. If the score is close, Larussa might be thinking he should go to whoever is the best pitcher available. Flores had been pitching a while when he was taken out of I recall. I was surprised how long he stayed in.

There's probably something to what you say, but I honestly have no trouble going with Izzy over Flores, Thompson, etc... when the score is close.

[valley_card22]

You had to look at game sitatuion as well.

We had a 4 run lead. Dunn and Griffey both, LH were comming up. Flores had a sharp 8th. Flores is paid to get LH, out. If it would have been a 3 run game to start the 9th, then you bring in your closer, because his job is it finish. But with 4 runs, you need your LOOGY to get some outs. He did 2/3 of his job.

[jim]

You had to look at game sitatuion as well.

We had a 4 run lead. Dunn and Griffey both, LH were comming up. Flores had a sharp 8th. Flores is paid to get LH, out. If it would have been a 3 run game to start the 9th, then you bring in your closer, because his job is it finish. But with 4 runs, you need your LOOGY to get some outs. He did 2/3 of his job.

That only makes sense to me in the parameters of the save rule. There isn't much difference between a 3 run lead and a 4 run lead, other than a guy gets credited with a save in one and not the other.

I would have had no problem with Flores pitching to Dunn and Griffey with a 1 run lead and then bringing Izzy in. I would have had no problem with Izzy coming in to start with a 4 run lead because he was already warmed up to come in. But the up and down and back up and maybe you come in and maybe you don't just doesn't seem necessary to me, other than to get the save.

[valley_card22]

There isnt much difference between 3 and 4 runs..except one run. I understand your point about the save rule. But I think it was more, a man on base, tying run on deck..bring in our best pitcher from the pen (Izzy). The error by Eck put the winning run at the plate so in turn, it was a good idea to have him pitching. You want to win/lose with your best.

[Hungary Jack]

Leaving Flores in to face the two lefties (Dunn and Jr.) was a no-brainer. My best guess is that TLR wanted to let Flores finish the game. After Encarnacion (right), Flores would face another lefty in Hatteberg, so he left Flores in. The Hatteberg single forced TLR's hand with the righty Gonzalez and then Ross coming up.

[valley_card22]

Holy Intelligent baseball conversation BATMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JL21]

I think you've got a fair point, jim. I don't know that the save rule came into play in the decision, exactly, but it probably would have been best to not use Isringhausen in a low-leverage situation. At that point, they only needed one more out, had a 3-run lead, and only one guy on base. Jeff Fassero could've closed that out.

[jim]

Leaving Flores in to face the two lefties (Dunn and Jr.) was a no-brainer. My best guess is that TLR wanted to let Flores finish the game. After Encarnacion (right), Flores would face another lefty in Hatteberg, so he left Flores in. The Hatteberg single forced TLR's hand with the righty Gonzalez and then Ross coming up.

That crossed my mind, and has some logic behind it.

I guess where I'm at with this is if you decided that the game needed Izzy to start the 9th (I'm not saying that, I would have considered leaving Flores in even in a save situation to get the two lefty bats out) then warm him up and bring him in. If a pitcher warms up and doesn't come in doesn't mean he hasn't been used that night. If a pitcher warms up twice, it's even worse.

[valley_card22]

Who else did you have left in the pen: Franklin (Prolly could have done the job), Hancock (eh, maybe), Johnson (LHP, and 2 righties comming up), Thompson (50/50 if he could have gotten the job done)

I say you use your closer when you need him. Theres no saving him for tomorrow. We may win/lose by 6 runs today. I like the problem of your closer getting to much work because that means your winning games or at least in close ones.