Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus (Update: Finalized!)

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Fat Strat
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Re: Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus almost a done deal

Post by Fat Strat »

The Rolen of 2005 and 2007 was pitiful at the plate, totally unacceptable for a 3B. 2006 was comparable to Glaus.
Glaus has been productive when he plays. There is no real reason to believe Rolen's shoulder will ever bounce back. He may never have another productive year. a bum shoulder is seems more of a potential career killer, a bum foot is a more probably a nuisance.
That's my take as well. Good summary.

Here's another thing that has to be considered. There have been some rumors that Rolen was going to sit out if we didn't trade him. I don't know if I believe them or not, but it's something that should be factored into the conversation. If the Cards suspected this or were told this, then any return for Rolen is a good return.

My philosophy all along has been get whatever quality return we could get from him. That's why I was willing to settle for Capuano. It wasn't because they were equal products on the feild, rather the combination of Rolen's angst + his debilitating shoulder injury led me to lean toward believing that Rolen would not be a signficant contirbutor to this club moving forward. I personally had little optimism that he would return to his '06 offensive levels. In fact, I think that he was experiencing a decreased bat-speed even during '06, which resulted in doubles-power instead of HR power. I think history has bore that out, considering that his power continued in a steep decline, ending with his season-ending surgery this season.

Others have said that the trade wouldn't go through if Rolen wasn't healthy. I agree. Problem is that team doctors don't measure bat speed during team physicals. Players get traded as "damaged goods" all the time. I think that Rolen might be physically healthy, more than healthy enough to pass a physical. Doesn't mean that his body will respond the way it did before surgery, or even how it did after his first surgery, or even how it did after his second surgery...

This trade minimizes risk for us. Rolen's a huge risk and a big question mark offensively for this club. Glaus is a much more established presence, and frankly, in a lineup with a lot of guys who MIGHT be productive, but very few established bats, he's a welcome addition. He's much more likely to add a stabilizing presence behind Pujols, providing a good slug + obp threat in the middle of the lineup, and allowing Ankiel and Duncan to fit into roles much better suited for their talents.

If we judge trades on how much you get for a player vs. how much you expected to get, I think that we made out well. I expected to get almost nothing good for Rolen, and we ended up getting a quality performer, with a solid history, and a good fit for our current and future needs.

I think that we also have to acknowledge that if Rolen somehow returns to his old form, this is not an even deal, and Toronto makes out better. That's the risk you take with any trade, and I don't think the difference in the two players or their salaries will be such that we regret this too much, if at all... even if Rolen returns to his '06 levels.

Good move, Mo. (..Also like that you did get a guy with a solid OBP, because I was started to worry about that.)

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cards2468
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Re: Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus almost a done deal

Post by cards2468 »

Ankiel was cleared by MLB after it was shown that he legally was given the steroids as part of his recovery from pitching related injuries... rather than illegally taking them to help reach epic levels of playing and maintain abilities into his 40's

Fat Strat
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Re: Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus almost a done deal

Post by Fat Strat »

the people who are "optimistic" about this trade are the ones most pessimistic about Rolen's health.
That's true. I don't think that sabermatrics has much to do with the optimism/pessimism in this deal. Health is the key issue. Statistically, Glaus hasn't been Rolen offensively. Anyone who disagrees with that is just fooling themselves. At the same time, Rolen hasn't been healthy in years and shoulder injuries are notoriously messy and hard to fully recover from. Anyone who disagrees with that is just fooing themselves.

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Bo Hart
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Re: Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus almost a done deal

Post by Bo Hart »

Easton, that's a very convincing post, but:
- Rolen all-but demanded a trade, stripping of us leverage, and,
- Rolen's last three seasons (cumulatively) were ugly, also rendering him less valuable.

With both of those coupled together, it's obvious we weren't going to get full value for him. Given the circumstances and the other rumored offers, I think we did quite well.

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indyredbird
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Re: Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus almost a done deal

Post by indyredbird »

Ace wrote:
indyredbird wrote:
Ace wrote:
indyredbird wrote:Isn't Glaus a cheat?
Hmmm.. :?: :-k

You know now that you mention it, I think he is. We can't have cheaters on the St. Louis Cardinals right? :x We'll have to get rid of Rick Ankiel while we're at it and dump TLR because he drove intoxicated. Albert's gone too, he lied about his age. I saw Molina at the mall one time and I sneezed... He didn't say bless you. :shock: Get him out of here.

Well if people on this forum are going to get on Bonds and Clemens, shouldn't Glaus be scrutinized?
And Ankiel?

Apples and oranges IMO. Bonds and Clemens are being scutinized so much because of all their baseball accomplishments and being two of the best players of all time.

Sorry, I get it it is OK to cheat as long as you don't approach any records.

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Re: Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus almost a done deal

Post by picasso »

It's not a smart move to trade a clearly superior player with such an obvious chance at rebounding for a guy who's average year is barely equivalent to a bad year from Rolen. You have to be absolutely convinced that Rolen is done to like this trade, and there simply isn't enough objective information available to us as fans to support that conclusion at this point
.

Rolen didn't want to be here, LaRussa didn't want him here, the casual Cardinal fan wanted "that ungrateful whiny third baseman" to be traded, apparently he had few friends among his teammates, we get a decent to good replacement and save a few bucks.

Regardless of your personal feelings or logically applied statistics, Mo and the Cardinal organization are going to win points on this trade.

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Ace
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Re: Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus almost a done deal

Post by Ace »

Fat Strat wrote:
The Rolen of 2005 and 2007 was pitiful at the plate, totally unacceptable for a 3B. 2006 was comparable to Glaus.
Glaus has been productive when he plays. There is no real reason to believe Rolen's shoulder will ever bounce back. He may never have another productive year. a bum shoulder is seems more of a potential career killer, a bum foot is a more probably a nuisance.
That's my take as well. Good summary.

Here's another thing that has to be considered. There have been some rumors that Rolen was going to sit out if we didn't trade him. I don't know if I believe them or not, but it's something that should be factored into the conversation. If the Cards suspected this or were told this, then any return for Rolen is a good return.

My philosophy all along has been get whatever quality return we could get from him. That's why I was willing to settle for Capuano. It wasn't because they were equal products on the feild, rather the combination of Rolen's angst + his debilitating shoulder injury led me to lean toward believing that Rolen would not be a signficant contirbutor to this club moving forward. I personally had little optimism that he would return to his '06 offensive levels. In fact, I think that he was experiencing a decreased bat-speed even during '06, which resulted in doubles-power instead of HR power. I think history has bore that out, considering that his power continued in a steep decline, ending with his season-ending surgery this season.

Others have said that the trade wouldn't go through if Rolen wasn't healthy. I agree. Problem is that team doctors don't measure bat speed during team physicals. Players get traded as "damaged goods" all the time. I think that Rolen might be physically healthy, more than healthy enough to pass a physical. Doesn't mean that his body will respond the way it did before surgery, or even how it did after his first surgery, or even how it did after his second surgery...

This trade minimizes risk for us. Rolen's a huge risk and a big question mark offensively for this club. Glaus is a much more established presence, and frankly, in a lineup with a lot of guys who MIGHT be productive, but very few established bats, he's a welcome addition. He's much more likely to add a stabilizing presence behind Pujols, providing a good slug + obp threat in the middle of the lineup, and allowing Ankiel and Duncan to fit into roles much better suited for their talents.

If we judge trades on how much you get for a player vs. how much you expected to get, I think that we made out well. I expected to get almost nothing good for Rolen, and we ended up getting a quality performer, with a solid history, and a good fit for our current and future needs.

I think that we also have to acknowledge that if Rolen somehow returns to his old form, this is not an even deal, and Toronto makes out better. That's the risk you take with any trade, and I don't think the difference in the two players or their salaries will be such that we regret this too much, if at all... even if Rolen returns to his '06 levels.

Good move, Mo. (..Also like that you did get a guy with a solid OBP, because I was started to worry about that.)
I agree, almost any decent return for Rolen is a good return. Especially for how slow his bat speed was last year.

Can anyone pull up Rolen's batting average in 2007 against fastballs?

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Re: Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus almost a done deal

Post by Ace »

indyredbird wrote:
Ace wrote:
indyredbird wrote:
Ace wrote:
indyredbird wrote:Isn't Glaus a cheat?
Hmmm.. :?: :-k

You know now that you mention it, I think he is. We can't have cheaters on the St. Louis Cardinals right? :x We'll have to get rid of Rick Ankiel while we're at it and dump TLR because he drove intoxicated. Albert's gone too, he lied about his age. I saw Molina at the mall one time and I sneezed... He didn't say bless you. :shock: Get him out of here.

Well if people on this forum are going to get on Bonds and Clemens, shouldn't Glaus be scrutinized?
And Ankiel?

Apples and oranges IMO. Bonds and Clemens are being scutinized so much because of all their baseball accomplishments and being two of the best players of all time.

Sorry, I get it it is OK to cheat as long as you don't approach any records.
That's not where I was going. I haven't really delved into those conversations at this site, so I'm not sure exactly what was being said. I was just saying Bonds and Clemens get discussed so much and people probably get a little emotional when they're getting talked about because they're two of the greatest players of all time.

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Bo Hart
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Re: Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus almost a done deal

Post by Bo Hart »

You guys, shut up about the Ankiel stuff. Start a new thread if you want to discuss it.

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indyredbird
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Re: Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus almost a done deal

Post by indyredbird »

Kyle wrote:You guys, shut up about the Ankiel stuff. Start a new thread if you want to discuss it.
I never mentioned Ankiel. I was just wondering on how this topic had reached 8 or 9 pages and nobody had mentioned Glaus is a known Steroid user. Probably why is has been injury prone.

Cards won a WS with Rolen and TLR feuding, I think they could have been professional enough just to coexist.

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