Civil Rights Up for Vote

[JCShutout]

I believe that same-sex couples should be allowed to adopt if they wish to, but that can be really rough on the kids growing up like from teasing in school, misunderstandings/unfavorable reactions and thus biased grades from teachers, etc.

Naming your child "streetlamp" or whatever Alaskan politicians name their kids can have that same effect.

[BW23]

They just need to wait for a few old people to die off & then another state prop will pass that removes the language that was just added.

Not sure it's just old people. While there are some generational ascpects to this, I know quite a few younger folks who would've voted for Prop 8.

I know a lot.

Just clarifying - are you saying you know a lot of younger folks against?

Yes, I do. Sorry to not be clear.

[clement]

There are plenty of young people supporting Prop 8 type measures and plenty of older folk who oppose them. But the result in California definitely showed a generational gap that has been and will continue to narrow over time. Like I've said before, the momentum on this issue is going in one direction and if it takes 10 or 20 more years, so be it. People, both gay and straight, will continue to fight against sexual orientation discrimination and they will ultimately prevail. It was only 5 years ago that the Supreme Court declared Texas' sodomy law unconstitutional, forcing the 13 remaining states that still had such laws to give them up. Since then we've seen gay marriage legalized in two states, about a half-dozen countries, and there is a strong likelihood that New York and New Jersey will be on the horizon. I also expect with Obama as president and Democrats controlling both houses of Congress, ENDA will finally pass, making gays and lesbians a protected class from job discrimination. And probably the biggest domestic victory with the Obama election is saving the Supreme Court from being taken over by conservative justices. Look for Ginsberg and Stevens to both step down, maybe even in the first two years of Obama's presidency and be replaced with young liberal leaning appointments.

Just as an aside... since this is a state issue, it seems ludicrous to me that Mormon churches in Utah can be pumping millions of dollars into a state initiative in California. I'm sure millions of out-of-state dollars were also coming into the No on 8 campaign as well, but the point is still the same.

[greenback44]

Just as an aside... since this is a state issue, it seems ludicrous to me that Mormon churches in Utah can be pumping millions of dollars into a state initiative in California. I'm sure millions of out-of-state dollars were also coming into the No on 8 campaign as well, but the point is still the same.

It doesn't seem any more out of place than someone in Singapore complaining about Prop 8, especially since that same person just argued that European perception should influence the presidential vote.

[clement]

Just as an aside... since this is a state issue, it seems ludicrous to me that Mormon churches in Utah can be pumping millions of dollars into a state initiative in California. I'm sure millions of out-of-state dollars were also coming into the No on 8 campaign as well, but the point is still the same.

It doesn't seem any more out of place than someone in Singapore complaining about Prop 8, especially since that same person just argued that European perception should influence the presidential vote.

I was a resident of and paid taxes in California for 6 years and it's my last place of residence in the U.S. since I've been living overseas. I am still an American citizen, and if I ever do move back, that would be the most likely place I would go. Also my ex got married in June and I think it's horrible that his marriage may now be nullified. I know a number of other people personally that this vote affects as well.

Not that these are the only reasons I'm complaining about Prop 8. After all, I would complain about a proposition in any state that sought to target one class of minority to legislate discrimination. For example, I would complain about and fight vigorously any legislation that sought to discriminate against or otherwise marginalize Mormons.

I don't see the connection between arguing that the perception of our allies is a factor in assessing presidential candidates and what I commented about out-of-state organizations funding propositions in California. Last I checked it's illegal for foreigners to contribute to U.S. campaigns.

[jim]

US citizens aren't allowed to complain now? Whew...

[TimeForGuinness]

US citizens aren't allowed to complain now? Whew...

I think that's in the Patriot Act, right?

[docellis]

There's no good rational grounds for me to reject what God's Word says. Sorry.

God loves gay people.

[TimeForGuinness]

There's no good rational grounds for me to reject what God's Word says. Sorry.

God loves gay people.

Jesus ran around with a bunch of guys

[greenback44]

Just as an aside... since this is a state issue, it seems ludicrous to me that Mormon churches in Utah can be pumping millions of dollars into a state initiative in California. I'm sure millions of out-of-state dollars were also coming into the No on 8 campaign as well, but the point is still the same.

It doesn't seem any more out of place than someone in Singapore complaining about Prop 8, especially since that same person just argued that European perception should influence the presidential vote.

I was a resident of and paid taxes in California for 6 years and it's my last place of residence in the U.S. since I've been living overseas. I am still an American citizen, and if I ever do move back, that would be the most likely place I would go. Also my ex got married in June and I think it's horrible that his marriage may now be nullified. I know a number of other people personally that this vote affects as well.

I'm sure there are plenty of Mormons in Utah who have spent a lot of time in California and will spend time in California. I'd also guess Mormons believe that when it comes to their religious duties, God doesn't care all that much about state boundaries.

Not that these are the only reasons I'm complaining about Prop 8. After all, I would complain about a proposition in any state that sought to target one class of minority to legislate discrimination. For example, I would complain about and fight vigorously any legislation that sought to discriminate against or otherwise marginalize Mormons.

I don't see the connection between arguing that the perception of our allies is a factor in assessing presidential candidates and what I commented about out-of-state organizations funding propositions in California. Last I checked it's illegal for foreigners to contribute to U.S. campaigns.

Foreigners don't have to donate directly to campaigns to influence an election. I'm not up on my campaign law, but I'd guess they could put their own ads on TV should they desire. I know some foreigners put up Obama signs, and there probably were some foreigners who put up McCain signs. Foreigners definitely are allowed to lobby our lawmakers. More to your original point, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe out-of-staters face restrictions any different than those of in-staters when it comes to campaign contributions.

Out-of-staters had a stake in this vote, just as Europeans had a stake in the presidential election. ISTM the factor that makes this ludicrous in your eyes is that the Utah Mormons actively supported one position. Apparently passive support is OK. I don't see a distinction worth the label of "ludicrous".