Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

[greenback44]

If american car companies can't compete or survive to produce fuel-efficient cars, then they'll just have to start making better cars or start offering products that compete better with Hondas and Toyotas.

What if they don't (make better cars)? Or, what if they DO make better cars but people have already decided they aren't buying domestic cars anymore?

If American car companies fail and our government never made an attempt to give them a push - I don't know. I think it would be pretty castrophic. Maybe I am overstating it.

But, I'd be upset because if American car companies all fail, it doesn't just affect the owners of American car companies.

The problem is the government has already tried. During the last oil crisis people started buying imports for reported better fuel efficiency and discovered they were much better cars. Detroit's response was to complain to Washington that nobody was buying American anymore. Even today sales trends point toward vehicles with fuel efficiency, yet they continue to make gas guzzling trucks and SUVs and wonder why they aren't selling.

Everything I've heard says the Chrysler bailout was a great success, except maybe for feeding Iacocca's ego a bit much.

I don't know where you live, but here in the most Republican county of the USA everybody loved those gas-guzzling SUVs. That has started to change, but I'll still walk into parking lots where well over half the automobiles are Canyoneros.

[Popeye_Card]

As I suggested earlier, what if we cut taxes across the board, learned to govern on a budget, allowed state and local entities to secure voter-approved financing for their projects, and put $1000's of back into the pockets of people instead of bailing out GM? That, imo, is a better longterm result.

That sounds awfully similar to the recent economic stimulus plan, which IMO failed miserably. And cost a heck of a lot more than $4 billion. IIRC, it cost $160 billion.

If you give the money back to the consumers, they're likely going to opt for many foreign-built and/or foreign-owned products again. That leaks money out of the economic system, which isn't taxed again, which re-coups government expenses. That's bad.

[Fat Strat]

As I suggested earlier, what if we cut taxes across the board, learned to govern on a budget, allowed state and local entities to secure voter-approved financing for their projects, and put $1000's of back into the pockets of people instead of bailing out GM? That, imo, is a better longterm result.

That sounds awfully similar to the recent economic stimulus plan, which IMO failed miserably. And cost a heck of a lot more than $4 billion. IIRC, it cost $160 billion.

If you give the money back to the consumers, they're likely going to opt for many foreign-built and/or foreign-owned products again. That leaks money out of the economic system, which isn't taxed again, which re-coups government expenses. That's bad.

That's possible, but should we tax Americans because we're afraid that they'll spend their own money on the things that they want?

And it's not an economic stimulus plan. It's a reclaiming our government plan. The failure of the stimulus was that we didn't cut spending to make up for the rebates. Cut taxes and cut spending accordingly. Reapportion the spending into projects that matter (jim, if you're listening, your theoretical science projects should make the cut) and are federal in nature. Let local governments handle local projects through their own tax levies.

It's been my experience that people are more than willing to raise their taxes locally if they know the money is going to go to local projects. You cut federal taxes, and I think you'll see local taxes climb and along with that, local growth.

If you can't tell, I'm a big believer in effective local government. I think it can work, and locally, accountability and oversight is much, much, much easier to obtain.

[Popeye_Card]

As I suggested earlier, what if we cut taxes across the board, learned to govern on a budget, allowed state and local entities to secure voter-approved financing for their projects, and put $1000's of back into the pockets of people instead of bailing out GM? That, imo, is a better longterm result.

That sounds awfully similar to the recent economic stimulus plan, which IMO failed miserably. And cost a heck of a lot more than $4 billion. IIRC, it cost $160 billion.

If you give the money back to the consumers, they're likely going to opt for many foreign-built and/or foreign-owned products again. That leaks money out of the economic system, which isn't taxed again, which re-coups government expenses. That's bad.

That's possible, but should we tax Americans because we're afraid that they'll spend their own money on the things that they want?

And it's not an economic stimulus plan. It's a reclaiming our government plan. The failure of the stimulus was that we didn't cut spending to make up for the rebates. Cut taxes and cut spending accordingly. Reapportion the spending into projects that matter (jim, if you're listening, your theoretical science projects should make the cut) and are federal in nature. Let local governments handle local projects through their own tax levies.

It's been my experience that people are more than willing to raise their taxes locally if they know the money is going to go to local projects. You cut federal taxes, and I think you'll see local taxes climb and along with that, local growth.

If you can't tell, I'm a big believer in effective local government. I think it can work, and locally, accountability and oversight is much, much, much easier to obtain.

The failure of the stimulus plan was that it was a terrible idea for what it was intended for. According to the reports, most people went out and bought flat screen TV's. I assume the vast majority of them manufactured overseas. Yes, they bought from American retailers, but they only see a small portion of the overall money spent. All we really did was stimulate the Asian economy.

As for local taxes funding local projects, that's a great idea in theory, but local governments are already as corrupt as they come. Imagine them getting even looser purse strings. Is Washington any better? Well, I don't think it's good by any means, but it's better than spreading the budget responsibility across thousands of smaller entities. If we can't trust the handful of representatives in Washington not to be greedy and/or foolish with the tax money they're given, how can we expect millions of people across the US? Accountability I guess? Again, great in theory, but it never fails that accountability and integrity fly out of the window when significant money is involved. I think that's human nature.

[Cole Burns]

Staying up with this thread is a full-time job. I already have two, so someone else will have to do it.

I'm thinking of applying for a government grant so I can devote my whole day to it.

[UK]

As I suggested earlier, what if we cut taxes across the board, learned to govern on a budget, allowed state and local entities to secure voter-approved financing for their projects, and put $1000's of back into the pockets of people instead of bailing out GM? That, imo, is a better longterm result.

That sounds awfully similar to the recent economic stimulus plan, which IMO failed miserably. And cost a heck of a lot more than $4 billion. IIRC, it cost $160 billion.

If you give the money back to the consumers, they're likely going to opt for many foreign-built and/or foreign-owned products again. That leaks money out of the economic system, which isn't taxed again, which re-coups government expenses. That's bad.

That's possible, but should we tax Americans because we're afraid that they'll spend their own money on the things that they want?

And it's not an economic stimulus plan. It's a reclaiming our government plan. The failure of the stimulus was that we didn't cut spending to make up for the rebates. Cut taxes and cut spending accordingly. Reapportion the spending into projects that matter (jim, if you're listening, your theoretical science projects should make the cut) and are federal in nature. Let local governments handle local projects through their own tax levies.

It's been my experience that people are more than willing to raise their taxes locally if they know the money is going to go to local projects. You cut federal taxes, and I think you'll see local taxes climb and along with that, local growth.

If you can't tell, I'm a big believer in effective local government. I think it can work, and locally, accountability and oversight is much, much, much easier to obtain.

The failure of the stimulus plan was that it was a terrible idea for what it was intended for. According to the reports, most people went out and bought flat screen TV's. I assume the vast majority of them manufactured overseas. Yes, they bought from American retailers, but they only see a small portion of the overall money spent. All we really did was stimulate the Asian economy.

As for local taxes funding local projects, that's a great idea in theory, but local governments are already as corrupt as they come. Imagine them getting even looser purse strings. Is Washington any better? Well, I don't think it's good by any means, but it's better than spreading the budget responsibility across thousands of smaller entities. If we can't trust the handful of representatives in Washington not to be greedy and/or foolish with the tax money they're given, how can we expect millions of people across the US? Accountability I guess? Again, great in theory, but it never fails that accountability and integrity fly out of the window when significant money is involved. I think that's human nature.

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRel ... RN20080702

An unforeseen and surprising
beneficiary of the Economic Stimulus Plan, a plan that George Bush contends
will "boost our economy and encourage job creation," has surfaced this week.
An independent market-research firm, AIMRCo (Adult Internet Market Research
Company), has discovered that many websites focused on adult or erotic
material have experienced an upswing in sales in the recent weeks since checks
have appeared in millions of Americans' mailboxes across the country.
According to Kirk Mishkin, Head Research Consultant for AIMRCo, "Many of
the sites we surveyed have reported 20-30% growth in membership rates since
mid-May when the checks were first sent out, and typically the summer is a
slow period for this market."

[Socnorb11]

It wasn't really hard to get everyone fired up.

Though, yes, she did present herself very well.

Last night was the first time that ive wanted to cast a vote for mccain instead of just agains obama.

Would you mind elaborating on this? What made you feel that way?

[Socnorb11]

after watching last nights procedings im as excited as ive been about the GOP in along time. I heard alot of things that i wanted to hear, well see how it plays out once shes not just reading a prepared speach, but Palin sounded like one heck of a VP last night.

Such as what?

[sighyoung]

Seems that Obama is being told to stay in his place:

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/wes ... 09-04.html

[Socnorb11]

Seems that Obama is being told to stay in his place:

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/wes ... 09-04.html

Wow.... definitely below the belt.

Even "elitist" is out of line, considering McCain couldn't even tell us how many homes he owns.

By the way, I thought it was a pretty good zinger today when Obama was asked about the attacks on him from the Republican convention last night. He basically said "Meh they don't bother me....... I've been called worse things on the basketball court".