Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

[docellis]

I think it is interesting that the most vehement prochoice people "seem" to be men.

You wouldn't say the same of the prolife crowd?

I typed that too fast...I meant prolife, not prochoice.

It has always confused me why men would be super sensitive about this issue...because, it seems to me - they can walk away from this issue. Women can't.

[planet planet]

So the baby would not be a person if it was born with a birth defect? If things would have been difficult on the mother it is ok to kill the baby? I never said Obama was a baby killer. I am done with the abortion issue, I gave my stance, I am not changing my mind. I heard the heartbeat of my child when it was 4 weeks old in my wifes womb, to me that is life, and nothing can justify taking that life. I will not talk about this issue any more since my opinions upset so many people, and I can't be objective. It is sure nice to know others can have opinions and beliefs but I can't. Carry on.

You seem to be the only one that's having trouble discussing this calmly.

I never said anything about "things being difficult for the mother". I'm talking about how difficult life is going to be for the child that is born to a teenage mother that has nothing. Some of those children suffer unmercifully. I'm thankful that your sister had places to go to make a good life for the child, but some people just don't. It's an unfortunate reality.

So these children are better of dead?
I have been calm the whole time.

I think it's a matter of each individual deciding when they believe "life" begins. Is it when there is a living organ in the womb, or is it when the brain develops, or is it some other time.

in other words, is it a pizza when the ingredients are on the dough or when it comes outta the oven?

I'm not sure I'd compare it to a pizza.

Give the man a break. It's his birthday. Of course, there's multiple jokes to be made about Jocephus bringing up pizza.

[tenniseleven]

I'm not super sensitive about the issue of abortion...for me its an easy decision, I don't believe in abortion for me...I just couldn't see doing it from my standpoint...


the problem, as Jim stated perfectly, is deciding what role the government plays in the issue...

this is where I'm supersensitive, as I don't want to live in a Fascist country just as much as I don't want to live in a Communist country...

some people don't mind the government being in their everyday lives, I do....

[tenniseleven]

btw, wasn't Palin's husband also arrested for a DUI in the past...

so I guess the Palin's have no trouble breaking the law in some instances..

[wart57]

I'm not super sensitive about the issue of abortion...for me its an easy decision, I don't believe in abortion for me...I just couldn't see doing it from my standpoint...


the problem, as Jim stated perfectly, is deciding what role the government plays in the issue...

this is where I'm supersensitive, as I don't want to live in a Fascist country just as much as I don't want to live in a Communist country...

some people don't mind the government being in their everyday lives, I do....

doesn't the government say you can't go in to a neighbors house and kill him?

[wart57]

btw, wasn't Palin's husband also arrested for a DUI in the past...

so I guess the Palin's have no trouble breaking the law in some instances..

we get it, you don't like them

[docellis]

doesn't the government say you can't go in to a neighbors house and kill him?

there is an enormous difference between abortion and breaking into your neighbors house to murder him.

anyway, wart, i am just curious - do you feel this strongly about any other politcal issue? do you believe in the death penalty?

[BenNX74205]

in other words, is it a pizza when the ingredients are on the dough or when it comes outta the oven?

I hate to use this analogy, but it's actually a good example. The problem that often arises in arguing/discussing abortion is the "when is it a pizza" problem. If you believe it is pizza once all the ingredients are in place, that is fine. When the person you are discussing the issue with believe it's only pizza when it comes out of the oven, you aren't going to make a lot of progress. Generally, each side is working from a mutually exclusive starting point: either it is life at conception, or it is only life at some later point. Whether that point is birth, viability, or some other point, it's some point later than conception. And so each side ends up talking past the other, because they are working from a different underlying belief.

Not saying that's what is going on here, but in my experience this is where most problems when discussing "pizza" arise.

And re Snayke's comment a while back on Roe not being overturned by Republican administrations, this is true. But Planned Parenthood v Casey, and other cases, have created numerous constitutional limitations that do not place an "undue burden" on a woman's right to choose. As such, many state legislatures have enacted many requirements that pregnant women must satisfy before being able to actually go through with an abortion. As a result, the right to choose remains intact for some women who have no way to actually exercise that right. That's the part that bothers me the most: setting up a situation where some individuals have the ability to exercise a constitutional right, while others do not. Whether you think the right to an abortion is constitutional or not shouldn't color one's opinion on whether only some individuals should be able to exercise their constitutional rights.

[wart57]

doesn't the government say you can't go in to a neighbors house and kill him?

there is an enormous difference between abortion and breaking into your neighbors house to murder him.

anyway, wart, i am just curious - do you feel this strongly about any other politcal issue? do you believe in the death penalty?

I don't believe in the death penalty.
I believe we all should have the right to own a gun, but some guns should be outlawed. I don't think illegal drugs should be legalized. I think church and state need to be separate, but all religions need to be treated the same way, if Muslim and Jewish people are to be respected for their beliefs, so should Christians.

Personally I don't see much difference, in an abortion someone is breaking in to that babies home and killing it. But that is only my belief and I am not trying to tell everyone who does not believe it they are wrong and need to change their minds. I also do not judge anyone who has had an abortion, it is not for me to judge them.

[tenniseleven]

well, I think most reasonable parts of the US population agree that doing something to hurt someone else shouldn't be allowed to happen...the same cannot obviously be said for early term (within a couple of weeks) abortion...

and again I state that I am anti-abortion (at least 1000% against abortion after the first 3 weeks or so, before that I'm not real sure, I just haven't seen a convincing argument either way...mostly because my gut instinct is that I don't have a problem with the pills that have come out recently that can be taken within days of unprotected sex), so you're not really arguing with me...

if people would just have responsible sex we would all be better off...take a birth control pill for crying out loud...it's not abortion, it's basically just doing the same thing you're body does at the end of each cycle or it's just reducing the frequency of the cycles...there's no killing of babies in birth control....none...unless masturbation is also killing babies...there are also these things called condoms that work pretty well...


anyway, I think I've said my peace on abortion (which again, I do not support)...and I believe it would be nice to talk about something else...

like Simony...