Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

[TimeForGuinness]

I thought this was interesting. Early results show she's going to help more with the conservative base than with women.

According to fresh data from Rasmussen Reports, Sarah Palin's selection is a mixed bag. Voters have a favorable impression of her by a 53/26 margin; however, by a 29/44 margin, they do not believe that she is ready to be President. Needless to say, the PR battle over the next couple of weeks will involve the McCain campaign playing up her biography, and the Obama campaign playing down her readiness.

What's interesting, however, is that while there is a gender gap in these numbers, it's not the one many observers were anticipating. Rather, along a variety of metrics, men like the Palin choice better than women:

Why does this gap exist? Don't know, but it may simply be a matter of ideology. Men are generally a bit more conservative than women, and opinions of Palin are very strongly determined by ideology.

Link

That doesn't surprise me...a lot of the women I know are scared of her.

[wart57]

I spent yesterday afternoon on a plane, and last night watching a movie with the family. So I just caught up with the 30 pages or so that exploded into this thread in the interim.

Is it fair to say that McCain's choice has "joeybombed" the 2008 presidential race? I can see both sides of the arguments presented - it'll be interesting to see how things play out.

I hope things stay civil because it will be fun to see how this thread evolves (and how big it gets) by November.

I hope so too, it's like watching your car odometer.

Getting back to the thing about voting for Obama being black - I fully admit that I live and work in an area not typical of mainstream America. Maybe my view of the world is not accurate - but I work with some really smart people and live with some really smart people and I honestly do not believe a single person that I know voting for Obama (which is majority) are basing their vote on the color of his skin.

The issues or so polar opposite you really have to have your head buried in the sand to have race be an issue. That sucks if someone is voting for him because he is black, or because that guy is old, or ....

The question I have, is how soon after, if Obama does not win, do people say America did not vote for him because he is black? I am calling the first second on election day that it starts to look like he is not winning. It is very unfortunate, but I think it will happen. The same thing would have happened if Hillary had won the nomination and she lost the election, people would have stated saying she didn't win because she is a woman.

Nuance, bro. Some people will not vote for Barry Oh because he's
liberal, some won't because he's black. A hundred million Americans
are going to vote in a couple of months and they all have deeply held
feelings for how they do so.

If McCain loses, is America ageist? Do they want to stick it to whitey?

Yes to all of the above.

Such is the melting pot called America.

Amen, I just hope there are enough people out there who vote the issues to negate the idiots who will vote because of any predjudice.

[jim]

I guess it's the demographics - I tend to hang around older folks. Almost all white, middle class and up, and I would say 75% for Obama strictly on issues and who the man is.

I'm not going to say I don't think having a black president is a good thing - I think it's great to address some of the things wart said above. But if he were white I would vote for him, in fact if he were a white annoying women with deep Washington roots I would vote for him(her).

[greenback44]

Good article, pop. Definitely raises some concerns. I'll be interested in seeing how she does over the next few weeks.

I still think McCain has solidified his base in a way he hasn't to this point. He should have (or they should have solidified on their own), but he hadn't. I'm sure my mother will be more solidly in McCain's camp after this. It's goofy, but there's more like her.

Thx. I stumbled on it looking for some background on Sarah and
thought it worth sharing with the gang.

Like I mentioned a few pages back (is this the record for most pages
in a thread here? Mods?) the VP debate is going to be very interesting.

I am way more energized with this campaign than any other, for many
reasons.

My mom falls into the same group as ghostrunner's mom. I hope McCain didn't do lots of focus group homework, because if he did, then this would be a cynical appeal to a sense of victimization. I can deal with right-wing moralization and I can overlook short-sighted attitudes toward the environment. If John McCain thinks Sarah Palin is the best person for the job, then I have an honest disagreement with him, that's all. Blatant cynicism is another matter though. It's why I haven't voted in over ten years.

I'll have to think about this some more. Maybe I'll be energized to the same level you are, but the source of that energy will be nausea.

[TimeForGuinness]

I guess it's the demographics - I tend to hang around older folks. Almost all white, middle class and up, and I would say 75% for Obama strictly on issues and who the man is.

I'm not going to say I don't think having a black president is a good thing - I think it's great to address some of the things wart said above. But if he were white I would vote for him, in fact if he were a white annoying women with deep Washington roots I would vote for him(her).

What is if it was Michael Phelps mom?

[GatewaySnayke]

My mom was shocked when we talked about it. All she could say is "what is he thinking?!"

I'm not surprised that she's energizing the conservative base and not women. She is red all over. The next logical step is for the McCain campaign to start scaring people with gay marriage.

[sighyoung]

I spent yesterday afternoon on a plane, and last night watching a movie with the family. So I just caught up with the 30 pages or so that exploded into this thread in the interim.

Is it fair to say that McCain's choice has "joeybombed" the 2008 presidential race? I can see both sides of the arguments presented - it'll be interesting to see how things play out.

I hope things stay civil because it will be fun to see how this thread evolves (and how big it gets) by November.

I hope so too, it's like watching your car odometer.

Getting back to the thing about voting for Obama being black - I fully admit that I live and work in an area not typical of mainstream America. Maybe my view of the world is not accurate - but I work with some really smart people and live with some really smart people and I honestly do not believe a single person that I know voting for Obama (which is majority) are basing their vote on the color of his skin.

The issues or so polar opposite you really have to have your head buried in the sand to have race be an issue. That sucks if someone is voting for him because he is black, or because that guy is old, or ....

I've heard from a lot of very young, black voters, many registering for the first time, that will vote simply because of Obama. I do know of some other moderates that that are doing so, ones that have voted before but are not tied to either party.

I will say I haven't heard of any white voter say this. But I will say that I've heard quite a few say they won't vote for him because he's black.

Maybe it will all equal out, but I doubt it.

I don't want to comment for too long on this, because I don't want to pretend to represent the entire black community by any stretch of the imagination.

Despite what they say, I think there's more to their reasoning than simply that Obama is black, whether or not we agree with their reasons. Rightly or wrongly, they haven't felt invested in other candidates before. They are profoundly cynical about the political system, and even opportunity in general. I've known many people who feel taken for granted or dismissed by both political parties, and by candidates who appear at community events in black neighborhoods only in election years. A white friend of mine told me a story about his father shopping for college dorm furniture in a black neighborhood, and one of the black customers asked if he were running for governor. The neglect is that bad.

It doesn't defend blithe assumptions that Obama won't take them for granted, however. Some of this is, partly, a long established pattern of bloc voting in which minorities often try to maximize their voting influence. I could digress about the curse of being within the core constituency in one party, and not even considered a likely electoral target by another.

This has already gone on too long, for which I apologize. I just wanted to complicate the discussion a bit. (Page 103, anyone?).

[TheoSqua]

Getting back to the thing about voting for Obama being black - I fully admit that I live and work in an area not typical of mainstream America. Maybe my view of the world is not accurate - but I work with some really smart people and live with some really smart people and I honestly do not believe a single person that I know voting for Obama (which is majority) are basing their vote on the color of his skin.

The issues or so polar opposite you really have to have your head buried in the sand to have race be an issue. That sucks if someone is voting for him because he is black, or because that guy is old, or ....

Agree. While this is history in the making, his blackness has no bearing
on why I am voting for him. He's a progressive and so am I.

I wonder how much his race really can play a part in the election. It seems to me, and this might be getting a bit off topic, that racism today has evolved from what it is in the past. I don't think the most prevelant form of racism today is a dislike of someone strictly because of the color of thier skin, it's become more cultural. Most people who dislike a speific skin color do so because of the common culture themes that are associated to that race. Obama's upbringing and personality are a bit different from the standard steriotypes that are negatively associated with black culture. If anything, he's ignoranrly associated with steriotypes from other races and cultures. Like people saying he's a muslim terrorist and stuff. Maybe that's associated with black culture for older people that have a more keen memory of the different movements of the 60s, but for the average ignorant 20-something white guy like myself, muslim extremists aren't associated with African-American culture very much.

[jim]

I just ran into an interesting character at the store...

Looked half sauced, had two kids about 10 and 12 with him, talking on a cellphone the entire time as loud as you can imagine while his daughter, desperate for attention, was running around the store yelling "Look at this Dad" while knocking things off shelves. The salesguy was getting 4 dozen shiners, and then while his buddy is still on the phone he screams across the room "AND ADD A COUPLE OF DOZEN CRAWLERS...". Apparently the deal on this outing was he got the bait, the buddy got supplied the Nat Light. They were going to have an abundance of both.

This guy will take his kids "fishing", probably elbow to elbow with others like him while his kids get bored after 10 minutes. His buddy and him will not pay attention, this is really a day out for them under the guise of taking the kids fishing. He'll leave a mess of empty beer cans and bait containers, drive home with a bucket of catfish and carp taken out of the local mudhole and sleep in tomorrow.

Then next week, when they are hot off the presses, he'll slap that "Sportsmen for McCain" bumpersticker on the truck, next to the "Guns, Gods, and Guts - Let's Keep All Three" bumper sticker.

[BW23]

I guess it's the demographics - I tend to hang around older folks. Almost all white, middle class and up, and I would say 75% for Obama strictly on issues and who the man is.

I'm not going to say I don't think having a black president is a good thing - I think it's great to address some of the things wart said above. But if he were white I would vote for him, in fact if he were a white annoying women with deep Washington roots I would vote for him(her).

Most of the ones I'm talking about are school-aged (high school seniors) or even some kids that have graduated the last year or two. They'll flat out tell you that they only reason they're going to vote is because they want a black president. They have no idea what the man stands for, and they really don't care. They'll tell you that, too. Many have commented that their parents feel the same way. And some have said their parents have never voted before.

And, like I said, I've heard from older white voters, some Democrats, that won't vote for Obama because he's black. That's the only reason.

Race issues haven't gotten very far where I'm at despite what people think around here.