Rant: Mangling city names

[maddash]

A lot of the English versions of Asian names are actually exonyms from China (such as Japan). So they were changed even before the Europeans got to them. Many are Portuguese translations of the Chinese exonym that then got even more changed when going to Old English, and then modern English. And a lot of the European names (like Germany) are Latin exonyms from the Roman translations of names they heard from tribes - Germania is apparently derived from a Gallic term.

What do you mean by Old English? Old English was essentially extinct as a spoken language except in remote regions of Britain by the late 12th century (Middle English, the fusion of Old French and Old English was emerging from about 50 years after the Norman Conquest in 1066). I could be wrong, but I don't think Portugal had had significant contact with China by that point.

Yeah, I was a little loose with the description. Middle English or Early Modern would be more apt.

[redbirdjazzz]

A lot of the English versions of Asian names are actually exonyms from China (such as Japan). So they were changed even before the Europeans got to them. Many are Portuguese translations of the Chinese exonym that then got even more changed when going to Old English, and then modern English. And a lot of the European names (like Germany) are Latin exonyms from the Roman translations of names they heard from tribes - Germania is apparently derived from a Gallic term.

What do you mean by Old English? Old English was essentially extinct as a spoken language except in remote regions of Britain by the late 12th century (Middle English, the fusion of Old French and Old English was emerging from about 50 years after the Norman Conquest in 1066). I could be wrong, but I don't think Portugal had had significant contact with China by that point.

Yeah, I was a little loose with the description. Middle English or Early Modern would be more apt.

Gotcha. As someone planning on going to grad school for medieval studies with concentrations on the history and language of the British Isles, I tend to get a little picky.

[AdmiralKird]

München = Munich. Doesn't make much sense.

Makes a lot more sense than:

Köln = Cologne

Cologne? Seriously.

Well Köln at least sounds like Cologne. München doesn't sound anything Munich, and it translates to something about monks. Can't we call it Monkberg or something if we're going to translate it?

Eh? Muenchen and Munich both have an identical first syllable, the only difference is the second syllable.

Köln sounds nothing like Cologne. The O in Koeln is pronounced is pronounced with a strong, exagerated "eeeeeww" vowel sound, but with a hint of the 'oo's in cool, its not the same as the 'o' in cologne or coal.
The only identical part here is the first consonant. Kooeewln.

But if you really want to go on a tear, rant about medieval/ancient names:


Charlemagne

Modern variants in Germanic languages (except English) are:

* Danish, Norwegian and Swedish: Karl den Store
* Dutch: Karel de Grote
* German: Karl der Große
* Luxembourgish: Karel de Groussen
* West Frisian: Karel de Grutte

The Germanic name was Latinised (Latin: Carolus Magnus) and preserved in the modern Romance languages (as well as English):

* Catalan: Carlemany
* French: Charlemagne and Charles le Grand, from the Old French Charles le Magne
* Italian: Carlo Magno and Carlomagno
* Portuguese: Carlos Magno
* Spanish: Carlomagno
* Walloon: Tchårlumagne and Tchåle li Grand

Modern variants in the Slavic languages influenced by the Germanic name are:

* Croatian: Karlo Veliki
* Czech: Karel Veliký
* Polish: Karol Wielki
* Slovak: Karol Veľký
* Slovenian: Karel Veliki

a lot of these are localizations, but the Egyptian Pharaohs have completely different names depending on what part of the Mediterranean you're in.

[KyCardinalFan]

Maybe a little bit of a different subject here, but I hate listening to the national media people trying to pronounce "Louisville" (in Kentucky) the way the locals do. (I lived across the river from Louisville, and then in 2 different palces in Kentucky from Kindergarten through the 11th grade, so it always got on my nerves.) They all used to say, "Louie-ville" then some time back they started trying to pronounce it the way the locals do. I've heard some say something like, "Lou-ville" or something similar. First, you have to understand that in the South, the "-ville" part of a town name is almost always pronounced "vuhl," not "vill." Next, you have to pronounce the "Louis-" part of the name almost as one syllable, but not quite two: something like "Lu-a," but sort of run the u and a sounds together: "Luavuhl" it's simple.

Someone from Owensboro told me once the first syllable rhymes with "Bull". So "Lull-vuhl".

Close, but I think some people are just a little lazier in their pronunciations. There is a slight "uh" between the first and second syllable that some barely make an effort so it sounds like "Lull". But I think more often than not you hear the more correct "loo-uh-vuhl" being said. Anything else and you'll hear, "You ain't from 'round here, air ya?"

[Spider John]

Should St Louis be pronounced as San Lu-E, with the accent on the E ?

[AdmiralKird]

Should St Louis be pronounced as San Lu-E, with the accent on the E ?

Normally, yes. But since it is French, the exemption rule is in effect.

[arnie.k]

just to add some:

why is "espana" called spain?

why is "hellas" called greece?

just wondering. i don't get why this is a rant. i think the different use of names across languages is actually cool, and is almost always explained by an interesting historical story.

for example:

greece is called "yavan" in hebrew - its spelling indicates that the ancient hebrews referred to all greeks as "ionians" (the spelling for "yavan" is very similar to "ion"), since the ionians were the first ancient greeks to cross the mediterranean.