Michael Vick

[Radbird]

I have many friends and relatives who hunt, and they are quite passionate about it. While they may not "need" to hunt for food, they do harvest the animals and use the meat, pelts, and other parts. And they are out in the wild, not shooting animals released from cages moments before.

I agree, that whole thing is BS. I don't even see the sport in it. It's skeet shooting with animals.

But that's a case in point, I think. What makes it cruel? The method of killing is no different than when someone hunts birds in the wild. I don't even know if it's cruel, but it's certainly senseless and I don't have any respect for it.

I'm probably not the best person to answer that question, since I'm not a hunter. In northern Wisconsin, where my wife is from and a place we visit often, hunting is a way of life moreso than a sport, as I suspect it is in a lot of rural America. The meat that is harvested from the animals packs the freezers and is used throughout the cold winters up there. And the wildlife populations are controlled also. I suppose there are more humane ways to accomplish that, but I'm not an expert in that field.

In my mind, however, a clear distinction can be drawn between the hunting I just described and the "animal skeet shooting" operations. I can understand the case for the former; I find the latter indefensable.

[clement]

I guess a question on my end would be - why does intelligence absolve us from being part of the food chain? You hear so much about humans messing with nature. If we all go vegetarian and stop killing animals, doesn't that affect nature too? Orcas kill sea lions who kill penguins. Just because we've advanced means we have no part in that? You can argue that's also arrogant. Animals kill other animals, and sometimes in cruel fashion, for a purpose. Why should we be different? Likewise, no other animals pit two other animals against each other for their enjoyment.

I am a vegetarian because I choose to be. Anyone can make that choice. But I never said anything about that before and I certainly never suggested that we need to remove ourselves from the food chain.

My issue with the factory farms is about the cruelty to the animals IN LIFE, not just in death. There is no animal in the food chain that is enslaved, pumped with hormones, force-fed, branded, mutiliated, and forced to live in a space where they can have no movement - other than those animals that humans do that to. So yes, when a lion attacks a deer, it's a violent death. But the deer didn't spend its whole life in misery leading up to that point.

Personally I think hunting for sport only is actually less cruel than what we tolerate on the factory farms, regardless of high or low you place a chicken or a pig on some arbitrary ranking of animal loveableness. And that kind of hunting is just a blip on the radar compared to factory farms when you think about the sheer numbers of animals that are subjected to this kind of horrible treatment.

Why should we be different?

Because we are capable of it.

[G. Keenan]

I guess a question on my end would be - why does intelligence absolve us from being part of the food chain? You hear so much about humans messing with nature. If we all go vegetarian and stop killing animals, doesn't that affect nature too? Orcas kill sea lions who kill penguins. Just because we've advanced means we have no part in that? You can argue that's also arrogant. Animals kill other animals, and sometimes in cruel fashion, for a purpose. Why should we be different? Likewise, no other animals pit two other animals against each other for their enjoyment.

My issue with the factory farms is about the cruelty to the animals IN LIFE, not just in death. There is no animal in the food chain that is enslaved, pumped with hormones, force-fed, branded, mutiliated, and forced to live in a space where they can have no movement - other than those animals that humans do that to. So yes, when a lion attacks a deer, it's a violent death. But the deer didn't spend its whole life in misery leading up to that point.

I think clement said almost exactly what I think about this question. I don't think eating animals is inherently wrong, but being cruel to animals absolutely is, even if that cruelty is performed in the name of the "food chain." Raising animals in factory farms is unquestionably cruel and buying meat produced under such circumstances makes one complicit in that cruelty. I do it, have guilt about it, and think it's something I should stop doing.

[ghostrunner]

But the deer didn't spend its whole life in misery leading up to that point.

How do we know the chickens are miserable? Because they can't move much? Maybe we're ascribing human tastes to beings that don't care. What about fish kept in bowls? Lobsters piled up in a tank in the grocery store? Is that cruel? How do chickens respond to it, and is the behavior any different from free-range chickens?

I didn't mean to assault vegetarianism. I just don't know how you go about humanely killing animals if you're not. The logical conclusion of what you're saying, as I read it, is that people should be vegetarians if they're going to pass judgement on Michael Vick. How can it be anything else? Most vegetarians I know became that because they essentially think killing animals for food is murder.

I guess I just hate the argument that "we shouldn't pass judgement on X because we do Y, and that may be somewhat hypocritical." The legal system would be backed up for years on that logic. A stand has to be taken somewhere. You should condemn this kind of behavior, or else it just becomes accepted.

[clement]

How do we know that the dogs don't enjoy the fighting and the torture?

I didn't say we shouldn't pass judgment on Vick. What I did say is that I would hope that an incident like this would cause all of us to pause and think about our own behaviour that may or may not fall somewhere in these grey areas.

My concern is that it's just too easy to brand Vick some sort of monster without really thinking about the whole society we live in that tolerates cruelty to animals in various forms, even if it's in less obvious and less black-and-white ways.

[jim]

crustaceans < insects

Craziness! How did you reach the conclusion that crustaceans are further down the pole than insects. And monkeys over puppies? What kind of world are you living in?

I've only read a couple of pages, but I don't understand this "degrees of wrong" business (I do conceptually, but I don't understand why that card needs to be played here). Killing food animals and torturing pets is an apples and wheelbarrows comparison.

I'm trying to sort all of this thread out, particularly when it comes to the blood sports (hunting/fishing), PETA, etc..., and this hits the nail on the head. Simple and to the point.

[jim]

I have many friends and relatives who hunt, and they are quite passionate about it. While they may not "need" to hunt for food, they do harvest the animals and use the meat, pelts, and other parts. And they are out in the wild, not shooting animals released from cages moments before.

I agree, that whole thing is BS. I don't even see the sport in it. It's skeet shooting with animals.

But that's a case in point, I think. What makes it cruel? The method of killing is no different than when someone hunts birds in the wild. I don't even know if it's cruel, but it's certainly senseless and I don't have any respect for it.

I'm probably not the best person to answer that question, since I'm not a hunter. In northern Wisconsin, where my wife is from and a place we visit often, hunting is a way of life moreso than a sport, as I suspect it is in a lot of rural America. The meat that is harvested from the animals packs the freezers and is used throughout the cold winters up there. And the wildlife populations are controlled also. I suppose there are more humane ways to accomplish that, but I'm not an expert in that field.

In my mind, however, a clear distinction can be drawn between the hunting I just described and the "animal skeet shooting" operations. I can understand the case for the former; I find the latter indefensable.

I was infuriated by the story of the wild boar that has been discussed on here, and other "skeet shooting" operations. Absolutely infuriated. I'm also infuriated with alot of other things: Foie Groi, massive animal operations where animals are basically tortured until death and then consumed (large scale chicken operations for example), genetically engineered food, massive chemical dumps to control weeds and insects that leech into the water supply.

I killed my last animal 2 days ago, a 14" brown trout that was born and raised in the stream in which I caught it. I caught it, whacked it on the head with a stick to put it out of it's "misery" (fish probably don't feel misery or pain as we know it, I actually was reducing my pain and misery with the blow), and had him on the grill within an hour. A touch of butter and lemon wrapped in aluminum foil. Delicious.

The blood sports can be done in a way that is consistent with our place on the food chain, respectful of the animal and the environment in which we are part of. Or, you can get some beer and load up the back of the pickup truck and fire at anything that moves. But to compare one to another is another apples and wheelbarrels comparison.

And to add to my list of things that infuriate me, put PETA on there. Put them right at the top for that matter, even with the boar hunter and the animal skeet shooter. Like those people, they have a complete misunderstanding and lack of respect for the world in which they live.

[haltz]

But to compare one to another is another apples and wheelbarrels comparison.

I meant that a step further. I definitely have some ethical problems some of that, but I don't think it compares to torturing dogs either.

All my posts about this got deleted in the Sunday blackout, but one is something that's an indicator of sociopathic-future-serial-killer behavior. Look, I have as much problem with inhumane chicken farming or whatever as the next guy. Though I'm not a vegetarian by any stretch, I buy free range and organic for the most part. I have for about two years.

I watched my grandfather kill rabbits that got in his garden in East Texas, and I watched my neighbor when I was in elementary school cackle and take his pocket knife and cut the legs off a softshell turtle he caught when he was fishing, then throw it back in the water. One of these things scared the living hell out of me, the other didn't.

I don't know what animals feel, but it isn't their pain-o-meter that freaks me out about someone torturing man's best friend.

[Arthur Dent]

And to add to my list of things that infuriate me, put PETA on there. Put them right at the top for that matter, even with the boar hunter and the animal skeet shooter. Like those people, they have a complete misunderstanding and lack of respect for the world in which they live.

I may not disagree, but care to elaborate on that?

[jim]

And to add to my list of things that infuriate me, put PETA on there. Put them right at the top for that matter, even with the boar hunter and the animal skeet shooter. Like those people, they have a complete misunderstanding and lack of respect for the world in which they live.

I may not disagree, but care to elaborate on that?

I can elaborate for hours if you like.

In one sentence, I would say they have a complete misunderstanding of the food chain and our place in it.