Michael Vick

[ghostrunner]

Pit bulls may be historically bred to fight, and they may even be dangerous, but they don't have to be "raised" to fight, and fight to the death. These probably were. That's problem number one. It's a danger to humans and other animals.

I don't care if it's dogs or cows or alligators. Anyone who gets enjoyment out of watching two animals tear each other apart has other problems which would also be a societal concern. Serial killers often start with animals, and it would seem logical to me that anyone who enjoys this sort of thing doesn't place adequate value on life in general. It goes beyond what's happening to the animals. What's happening to the people watching it?

When an animal is killed in hunting, the intention is that it's over rather quickly. And most hunters I've known actually do eat what they kill. I don't consider hunting any more cruel than fishing or stepping on a spider.

[Leroy]

Every channel I saw last night were showing those videos over and over.

The only TV I generally see is the 8 screens at the gym for the most part. That was the only place I saw that video.

I guess it was terrible because I was sort of either forced to watch it or literally turn my head away from the game. It was revolting.

i was flipping channels last night and landed on a channel showing dog fighting
and my wife about punched me in the face.. it wasn't even my fault..

Now that I think about it, I wanted to punch you in the face last night too. I don't know why though. Just impulse I guess.

[Bo Hart]

And you're saying he's a joke because he played poorly against the Cheifs?

,...and a lot of other teams. Vick stinks (or stunk) as a passer. He's spend how many years in the NFL and he's still not got any more of an idea about coverage schemes than some camp fodder street FA QB? Jason Marquis comparisons are also valid.

BTW-The key to football is blocking. No one could have run behind the horse$#*t blocking effort by the Chiefs at Indy. The Chiefs should have docked the O-linemen the cost of a round trip flight to Indy, a hotel room and a game ticket. They only watched. The Chief OL sure as hell didn't play any football that afternoon.

Vick's career passer rating is 75.7; while it is by no means good (in fact, it's going to be below average every season), it's really not league-worst. If you say he's a bottom-third passer, that's fine. But then you've got to factor in his legs. And with his legs, I don't see how you can't consider him a top half quarterback in the league. I'm not saying he's one of the best, I'm saying he's (slightly) better than average.

And, besides, name the last legitimate receiver Vick has had? Oh, that's right, he's never had one. The closest thing to that is Alge Crumpler, but he's limited, being a tight end.

[arnie.k]

If hurting "any" animal is wrong...where do you draw the line? What if your house has rats or mice? What if a mole is destroying your yard? What do you do?

And where do you draw the line at animals?

Reptiles? What about living things? Do you object to all living things being killed? Insects?

How do you qualify things like this?

r-e-s-p-e-c-t

if you grow pigs the way GK noted, you're a sinner. if you let them "free-range" and then eat them, you're just a carnivore (and that's fine by me, even though i don't practice it). the reason being, is that you gave them a good life, even if you ended it (and all life ends, that's part of it).

if you catch a mouse in your home, and you have the means and ability to release him in the wild, but choose to torture him to death, you've sinned.

and, unfortunately, i also have a scale...

crustaceans < insects < fish & reptiles < birds < mammals < primates < humans

it's an arbitrary scale - i admit. it has to do with me being a human, and having more sympathy to things i can relate to.

[TGantz]

My point wasn't necessarily that the Rams need him. I was trying to say that I don't really care about his off the field issues. What does dogfighting have to do with football? It doesn't matter to me that he's a criminal. I like to see football, and he's an exciting player. I hope he can still play in the NFL.

[omaha_red]

Animal cruelty is animal cruelty. Either you're for it or against it.

that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard.. you know a lot of people "for" animal cruelty? cause i don't.
your argument makes me laugh.

i don't see too many people hanging and electrocuting a deer because it didn't win him $26,000

[TheoSqua]

I think we're all sort of argueing semantics here.

No one is condoning dog fighting.

I don't know about magneto, but my point was that in a society that is filled with violence of every sort why does it suprise anyone that people would play upon a dog's natural territorial inclinations as a form of entertainment?

Would I ever enjoy watching dog fighting or condone someone else doing it? No. That's not the sort of thing that interests me. But to sit here and be shocked or apalled by a dog-fighting ring when our race was developed on taking advantage of animals and we have thousands upon thousands of instances where animals are treated inhumanely is just being ignorant.

You cannot put "humane" characteristics on animals because there not human. We can use our natural sense of compassion and sympathy, which is obviously what people are using in this circumstance, to conclude that something isn't morally right and something we would stay away from. Everyone in this thread has already agreed that dogfighting is wrong and not something a strongly moral person would enjoy.

But Magneto brings out a strong point in that the butcher industry is just as bad and is even regulated with a lot of leniances that many think are cruel. When Peta protests against KFC because there not taking care of their chickens before there slaughtered people talk about how Peta is taking it overboard, but when people find out a people are using dogs attacking eachother as a means of entertainment they act as if this has never happened before.

Michael Vick and his little ring of dogfighters is hardly a shock when it comes to how animals are viewed in American subculture. Being suprised over dog fighting is like being amazed that police find a meth lab in missouri. Does everyone in Missouri make meth or use it? Hardly. Is it a strong underculture in this area that isn't very outgoing and we don't like to admit is a problem? Yes. Same thing goes for dog fighting.

I really don't have any arguements with anyone in this thread thus far. I'm just disappointed in everyone else that you're being so unkind to Magneto for pointing out the honest truth of the situation. Just because you choose to put rose colored glasses on and pretend that this sort of animal cruelty doesn't happen throughout the world doesn't mean that the attitudes others have for animals is going to change. As a race we have always had an inclination to taking advantage of those that we can control and have less power than us, and just because we've done a better job of masking this as our society has progressed doesn't mean that the problem has gone away.

[haltz]

crustaceans < insects

Craziness! How did you reach the conclusion that crustaceans are further down the pole than insects. And monkeys over puppies? What kind of world are you living in?

I've only read a couple of pages, but I don't understand this "degrees of wrong" business (I do conceptually, but I don't understand why that card needs to be played here). Killing food animals and torturing pets is an apples and wheelbarrows comparison.

[docellis]

crustaceans < insects

Craziness! How did you reach the conclusion that crustaceans are further down the pole than insects. And monkeys over puppies? What kind of world are you living in?
.

Yeah, insects HAVE to be lowest because I don't want to eat them. I DO want to eat crustaceans.

[Radbird]

Wanted to re-post this from the Sunday Denver Post's Opinion page (one of yesterday's lost posts).

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_6474475

Vick and Dick
What the Falcons QB may have in common with America's VP
By Andrew Feinstein

Like most of you, I was appalled when reading the ghastly details of the indictment against Michael Vick, which accused the Atlanta Falcons quarterback of violating federal laws against dogfighting, procuring and training pit bulls for combat and conducting this illegal enterprise across state lines.

As we've all read by now, the indictment also included allegations of torture by electrocution and drowning of the animals, employing rape stands and at least one incident of slamming a dog's body onto the ground until it died.

I don't have to tell you that this is beyond the pale of sick human behavior, and if the allegations prove true, I hope Vick gets a lifetime ban from the NFL and whatever jail time is coming to him - and, if we're lucky, maybe they can throw a few rabid pit bulls into his jail cell.

In addition to the allegations and gruesome facts of the case, there's been a debate raging on sports radio about whether or not Vick is in the cross-hairs due to his race - implying that if Vick were white, perhaps the court of public opinion (if not the federal government itself) would somehow play a more wait-and-see approach.

So I've spent the past few days searching for a case in recent history in which a prominent white celebrity got caught committing a vile act of inhumane torture against animals and got off easy. And I found one: Dick Cheney.

During a weekend quail "hunt" in February 2006, Vice President Dick Cheney accidentally shot his pal Harry Whittington in the face. And while the national media, pundits and late-night talk show hosts had a field day with the shooting, the coverup, Cheney's delay in alerting his boss (who just happens to be the president) and so forth, the real story was overlooked. The real story is that Cheney, like others of his ilk, travels to private "hunting" ranges throughout the U.S., where birds and mammals are placed in cages or nets for weeks at a time, only to be released when the "hunters" arrive to shoot them at close range. The animals aren't just released with an open hatch or the untying of a net; they are released in a way that disorients them, enabling the "hunter" to get a quick, easy shot. You see, the "hunting" range only collects a fee for animals killed, and thus it's in their best interest to have as much carnage as possible. Is this not torture?

Cheney and Vick - or Dick and Vick, as I like to call them - actually have a lot in common. They're both obscenely rich, travel with an entourage of cronies who'll take the heat should their ringleader get in trouble, dropped out of college early (although in fairness to Dick, after flunking out of Yale, he did finish his degree at the University of Wyoming), starred on their high school football teams but can't throw an accurate pass, and, of course, seem to revel in the caging, torturing and killing of helpless animals.

And much like Vick, Dick is a repeat offender. According to an article on the Humane Society website, in 2003 Dick, along with former Dallas Cowboys quarterback Roger Staubach (what is it with quarterbacks?), U.S. Sen. John Cornyn and several GOP fund-raisers went pheasant "hunting" at the exclusive Rolling Rock Club in Ligonier Township, Pa., where 500 pen-raised pheasants were released from nets, so that Dick and his entourage could gun down 417 of them. After lunch, according to the site, they also knocked off a hundred or so penned-up mallard ducks. The article didn't mention what they did during happy hour.

While the sports media debate whether or not Vick should play football this season, perhaps the mainstream media should start engaging in a debate about how we treat animals in this country. The Humane Society pointed out in 2003 that in the U.S. there are more than 3,000 canned bird-shooting operations, more than 2,000 private hunting facilities with mammals, including exotic "game" like zebra, in addition to the scores of illegal dog- and [expletive]-fighting outfits we don't know about.

While some people on the extreme left may want Dick tried for war crimes (which will never happen), let's make caged hunting illegal in this country, so the likes of Dick could join his fellow animal torturer Vick in being prosecuted.

Then, when they're both in jail together, they can work on their anemic passing games.

Denver native Andrew Feinstein is the co-creator of "Girls & Sports," a nationally syndicated comic strip (http://www.girlsandsports.com).