Opening Night: Post Game Thread

cardfaninfla · Post by **cardfaninfla** » April 3 07, 1:32 pm

It didn't take a perfect throw. He could have bounced that throw on one hop and still got him. It could have been to teh fiorst base side and they still had a shot to get Eck. Maybe OQuendo DID think there was no way he would throw home, it still doesn't make it a wise move. Beltran makes that throw at least 80% of the time.

If you hold him the worst you end up with is 1st and 3rd, one out and Pujols and Rolen coming up. NO reason what so ever to take even a small chance in that situaion.

Here are thethings that make it a bad play.
1. Score, down 4 you can't afford to have a guy thrown out.
2. Who was on deck.
3. Number of outs.
4. The guy making the throw.
4.

raddy · Post by **raddy** » April 3 07, 1:46 pm

You know you are disputeing the word of a person that just told you he was looking at the play frame by frame.

jim · Post by **jim** » April 3 07, 1:50 pm

raddy wrote:You know you are disputeing the word of a person that just told you he was looking at the play frame by frame.

I looked frame by frame as well, and came to more or less the same conclusion as cardfaninfla.

Richie Allen · Post by **Richie Allen** » April 3 07, 1:53 pm

I have no problem with setting the tone on day 1 that we're going to be an aggressive team.

We needed a lot of good things to happen the balance of that game if we were going to come back. Not sure playing the percentages was going to get it done either.

Sure, you could argue it was a dumb play. And because he was nailed, it goes down in the Dumb Column. But let's not waste time blaming our guys for being stupid. That ball gets cut off, nobody mentions it. It's good aggressive base running.

I want a team that sneaks into second when an outfielder nonchalantly approaches a base hit. I like the squeeze play. They're going to backfire from time to time but they're also going to make a difference in a game from time to time.

maddash · Post by **maddash** » April 3 07, 1:53 pm

jim wrote:
raddy wrote:You know you are disputeing the word of a person that just told you he was looking at the play frame by frame.
I looked frame by frame as well, and came to more or less the same conclusion as cardfaninfla.

Yeah, I was at the game, and then watched the replay, and thought Eck was out by a good margin on both accounts.

jim · Post by **jim** » April 3 07, 1:57 pm

Richie Allen wrote:I have no problem with setting the tone on day 1 that we're going to be an aggressive team.

Difference between aggressive and wreckless.

We needed a lot of good things to happen the balance of that game if we were going to come back. Not sure playing the percentages was going to get it done either.

Sure, you could argue it was a dumb play. And because he was nailed, it goes down in the Dumb Column. But let's not waste time blaming our guys for being stupid. That ball gets cut off, nobody mentions it. It's good aggressive base running.

I would have had the same problem with the play regardless of the outcome.

I want a team that sneaks into second when an outfielder nonchalantly approaches a base hit. I like the squeeze play. They're going to backfire from time to time but they're also going to make a difference in a game from time to time.

Take a look at the film and see if you think Beltran was being nonchalant. It was a textbook demonstration of how to play a ball with a play at the plate.

Oquendo goofed. A poor decision caused by poor positioning. Mistakes happen, I'm not down on Oquendo or calling for his head. But I'm calling it for what it was, a poor decision.

haltz · Post by **haltz** » April 3 07, 2:12 pm

cardfaninfla wrote:It didn't take a perfect throw. He could have bounced that throw on one hop and still got him. It could have been to teh fiorst base side and they still had a shot to get Eck. Maybe OQuendo DID think there was no way he would throw home, it still doesn't make it a wise move. Beltran makes that throw at least 80% of the time.

You can skip a strike to home, it doesn't mean it doesn't take a perfect throw and perfect execution and mechanics from Beltran, which he delivered. I'm sure he could do it again. Under different circumstances, later, closer, two outs, I'd send Eckstein every time and I'd be willing to bet he scores more often than not though.

Originally I was just clamoring for a little more credit to be given to Beltran. Tom Emanski would have been proud, perfect crow-hop, rounded the ball beautifully and he put the ball into the trashcan on the fly from 180-200 feet away. The play was bang-bang, if the throw were to the other side of the plate Eckstein would've been safe.

If you hold him the worst you end up with is 1st and 3rd, one out and Pujols and Rolen coming up. NO reason what so ever to take even a small chance in that situaion.

Here are thethings that make it a bad play.
1. Score, down 4 you can't afford to have a guy thrown out.
2. Who was on deck.
3. Number of outs.
4. The guy making the throw.
4.

Agreed on all counts.

Richie Allen · Post by **Richie Allen** » April 3 07, 2:24 pm

jim wrote:Difference between aggressive and wreckless.

I would have had the same problem with the play regardless of the outcome.

Take a look at the film and see if you think Beltran was being nonchalant. It was a textbook demonstration of how to play a ball with a play at the plate.

Addressing your points in reverse order...
I never said Beltran was being nonchalant. I was giving a hypothetical situation that can be exploited by an aggressive team on the base paths.

Are you saying to never send a guy from second with one or less outs? Or just in that exact situation with that same LFer and the ball hit that hard and the same runner on second getting the same jump?

There's not much difference between being cautious and being tentative.

skmsw · Post by **skmsw** » April 3 07, 2:29 pm

There's not much difference between being cautious and being tentative.

Maybe not, but there is a big difference between being cautious/tentative and merely not being reckless.

jim · Post by **jim** » April 3 07, 2:33 pm

Richie Allen wrote:
jim wrote:Difference between aggressive and wreckless.

I would have had the same problem with the play regardless of the outcome.

Take a look at the film and see if you think Beltran was being nonchalant. It was a textbook demonstration of how to play a ball with a play at the plate.
Addressing your opoints in reverse order...
I never said Beltran was being nonchalant. I was giving a hypothetical situation that can be exploited by an aggressive team on the base paths.

Are you saying to never send a guy from second with one or less outs? Or just in that exact situation with that same LFer and the ball hit that hard and the same runner on second getting the same jump?

There's not much difference between being cautious and being tentative.

Not saying that at all. I'm saying in that situation(outs/score/on-deck batter etc...), with that CF'er, with him transferring the ball into his throwing hand before Eck is even at 3rd, he should not have sent him. If Oquendo would have come down the line some, he would have seen the throw in the air when Eck rounded 3rd. He could have thrown the stop sign up after Eck crossed 3rd.

Coaching 3rd base is not an easy job at all. Things happen so fast, and you have so much going on in a very quick amount of time. And you better be able to multi-task during all of this, just as you send a guy home you know have a potentially new responsibility with the trailing runners.

It's a tough job, and for the record I think Oquendo is pretty good at it.