Coronavirus

[Joe Shlabotnik]

We can't go back in time. This is a scenario akin to a war in which the population needs to make sacrifices for the greater good. And by sacrifice I mean taking on the small degree of risk that comes from the vaccines. There are times where citizens have to stand up and do their part for the greater good, even when that means taking on a degree of personal risk. Luckily for us, the risk of the vaccine is approximately a million times less than say, storming the beaches of Normandy.

Which is fine, and I understand all of that. But to provide the vaccine makers and the US government w/ complete immunity from these peoples injuries (or any others harmed by the vaccine) is pretty despicable. If the government is making a HUGE push to get the vaccine, the LEAST they could do is pay for the medical bills if you’re harmed by it.

Like the gentleman said in the video, when it’s happening to someone else the vaccine poses minor issues and low risk, until it happens to you or someone you love.

I wanted to address the bolded (by me) statement.

I thought I had posted about this way earlier in this thread, but the vaccine manufacturers are supposed to provide compensation for injuries. There is a fund set up to do just that. Unfortunately, and I can't remember which media outlet it was that reported on it, they make the victim reporting criteria very narrow AND the government doesn't do a very good job of enforcing the compensation responsibility by the manufacturers. All that is to say that the vaccine manufacturers don't have complete immunity, because that's not how the system is set up, but they do have substantial immunity due to a broken/unenforced compensation system.

This is absolutely wrong. The government should be making it easy and uncomplicated to get compensation. Its bs not to. Completely stupid. I'm for enforced vaccination but to leave people adversely affected out of the equation is morally wrong.

[G. Keenan]

I appreciate your take through all of this AW, as you’re one of the few that has presented information on both sides of the isle and have been willing to call a spade a spade when you see it.

Because things like this are discouraged, it only leads to distrust. All I ask is for honesty from all sides, and w/ the way they are trying to silence anyone/anything that cautions the vaccine in any way, shape, or form only tells me they don’t want that information getting out.

I don't think anyone here has been saying the vaccines are 100% risk-free. The thing is that the vaccines are the best way to end the pandemic.

The only way to end the pandemic is to achieve herd immunity to the virus, and there are only two ways to achieve that. Mass vaccination, or nearly the entire population getting infected and developing immunity that way. In the latter scenario the pandemic drags on for years, hundreds of thousands more people die, maybe even millions, and the economy is devastated.

We can't go back in time. This is a scenario akin to a war in which the population needs to make sacrifices for the greater good. And by sacrifice I mean taking on the small degree of risk that comes from the vaccines. There are times where citizens have to stand up and do their part for the greater good, even when that means taking on a degree of personal risk. Luckily for us, the risk of the vaccine is approximately a million times less than say, storming the beaches of Normandy.

So again, the vaccines can produce adverse reactions that can be serious. No medicine, not even Tylenol, is without side effects for some people. But what is the realistic alternative? What is the upside to a press conference like this? Do people think they have no part to play in ending the pandemic? That unless the vaccine is literally 100% safe they have no social responsibility to their communities and the country as a whole to help end this? It's a form of freeloading, really. Saying I want the pandemic to end, but I'm not willing to take any amount of personal risk to help do so. I will leave that to other people but still expect to reap the benefit.

Lockdowns, masks, and social distancing will not end the pandemic. All they can do is slow it down for a little while. Without herd immunity the pandemic will literally drag on for years.

I guess the upside to a press conference like this is to bring attention to an issue that, at least according to the patients' accounts, is entirely ignored by the CDC/FDA/Pharmaceutical Companies and where their personal docs or the docs associated with the studies have no answers other than, eh, sorry. Again, I can't verify these stories, but are we at a point that I need to?

I must have missed the part where they, or anyone, has proved that the CDC et al are trying to suppress data on serious side effects. What suppressing are they talking about? I read an article in the Washington Post 2 or 3 days ago about neurological side effects being linked to the J&J vaccine. Right there on the front page of the mainstream media. You referenced the clotting issue, also widely reported.

So yeah, if people are going to come out alleging some conspiracy to hide information from the public their claims do need to be verified. And anything Ron Johnson attaches himself to definitely needs to be verified. He is an unapologetic disseminator of Russian disinformation, and that's not my opinion, it's the opinion of the Senate Intelligence Committee. So everything he puts out there very much does need to be scrutinized.

The vaccines are very good, but not perfect. Are they causing thousands upon thousands of unreported, serious, life-altering side effects? Maybe. But a handful of anecdotes do not lead to that conclusion.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

I appreciate your take through all of this AW, as you’re one of the few that has presented information on both sides of the isle and have been willing to call a spade a spade when you see it.

Because things like this are discouraged, it only leads to distrust. All I ask is for honesty from all sides, and w/ the way they are trying to silence anyone/anything that cautions the vaccine in any way, shape, or form only tells me they don’t want that information getting out.

I don't think anyone here has been saying the vaccines are 100% risk-free. The thing is that the vaccines are the best way to end the pandemic.

The only way to end the pandemic is to achieve herd immunity to the virus, and there are only two ways to achieve that. Mass vaccination, or nearly the entire population getting infected and developing immunity that way. In the latter scenario the pandemic drags on for years, hundreds of thousands more people die, maybe even millions, and the economy is devastated.

We can't go back in time. This is a scenario akin to a war in which the population needs to make sacrifices for the greater good. And by sacrifice I mean taking on the small degree of risk that comes from the vaccines. There are times where citizens have to stand up and do their part for the greater good, even when that means taking on a degree of personal risk. Luckily for us, the risk of the vaccine is approximately a million times less than say, storming the beaches of Normandy.

So again, the vaccines can produce adverse reactions that can be serious. No medicine, not even Tylenol, is without side effects for some people. But what is the realistic alternative? What is the upside to a press conference like this? Do people think they have no part to play in ending the pandemic? That unless the vaccine is literally 100% safe they have no social responsibility to their communities and the country as a whole to help end this? It's a form of freeloading, really. Saying I want the pandemic to end, but I'm not willing to take any amount of personal risk to help do so. I will leave that to other people but still expect to reap the benefit.

Lockdowns, masks, and social distancing will not end the pandemic. All they can do is slow it down for a little while. Without herd immunity the pandemic will literally drag on for years.

I guess the upside to a press conference like this is to bring attention to an issue that, at least according to the patients' accounts, is entirely ignored by the CDC/FDA/Pharmaceutical Companies and where their personal docs or the docs associated with the studies have no answers other than, eh, sorry. Again, I can't verify these stories, but are we at a point that I need to?

I must have missed the part where they, or anyone, has proved that the CDC et al are trying to suppress data on serious side effects. What suppressing are they talking about? I read an article in the Washington Post 2 or 3 days ago about neurological side effects being linked to the J&J vaccine. Right there on the front page of the mainstream media. You referenced the clotting issue, also widely reported.

So yeah, if people are going to come out alleging some conspiracy to hide information from the public their claims do need to be verified. And anything Ron Johnson attaches himself to definitely needs to be verified. He is an unapologetic disseminator of Russian disinformation, and that's not my opinion, it's the opinion of the Senate Intelligence Committee. So everything he puts out there very much does need to be scrutinized.

The vaccines are very good, but not perfect. Are they causing thousands upon thousands of unreported, serious, life-altering side effects? Maybe. But a handful of anecdotes do not lead to that conclusion.

Yes, they reported ~100 cases of Guillan Barre associated with J&J. They paused J&J based on something like 6 blood clotting incidents. However, I can't find any associated with Pfizer, Moderna, or Astra Zeneca which were the vaccines cited in the stories. And, as noted, I took the story tellers at their word. According to them they felt ghosted by the medical field, have severe and chronic side effects, and there are thousands more just like them. According to them. If you want to make the case Ken Ruettgers wife and everything they've done is for a sinister purpose, it's time to move it to the political thread, imo. Regardless, enough about that group.

Is there independent evidence anywhere to support the claims that there are neurological side effects and if so how common are they?

Going to google, there's a bunch of stuff about J&J and the 100 cases of GBS.

Then this from the NIH.

https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Current-Resea ... em#vaccine

Almost everyone should get the COVID-19 vaccination. It will help protect you from getting COVID-19. The vaccines are safe and effective and cannot give you the disease. Most side effects of the vaccine may feel like flu and are temporary and go away within a day or two. In early vaccine development, there were extremely rare reports of unexplained neurological illness following COVID-19 vaccination, but regulators found no evidence the vaccines caused the illness. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) continues to investigate any report of adverse consequences of the vaccine and none have appeared as of yet. Consult your primary care doctor or specialist if you have concerns regarding any pre-existing known allergic or other severe reactions and vaccine safety. Scientists are studying the risk to benefit ratio of the vaccine in someone who previously developed Guillain Barré syndrome after a vaccination. The general sense is the COVID-19 vaccine is safe in individuals whose Guillain-Barré syndrome was not associated with a previous vaccination.

Then the FDA fact sheet about pfizer. Neurological disorders not mentioned as side effects.

https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download

WHAT ARE THE RISKS OF THE PFIZER-BIONTECH COVID-19 VACCINE?
There is a remote chance that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine could cause a
severe allergic reaction. A severe allergic reaction would usually occur within a few
minutes to one hour after getting a dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine. For
this reason, your vaccination provider may ask you to stay at the place where you
received your vaccine for monitoring after vaccination. Signs of a severe allergic
reaction can include:
• Difficulty breathing
• Swelling of your face and throat
• A fast heartbeat
• A bad rash all over your body
• Dizziness and weakness
Myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the lining
outside the heart) have occurred in some people who have received the Pfizer-BioNTech
COVID-19 Vaccine. In most of these people, symptoms began within a few days following
receipt of the second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine. The chance of having
this occur is very low. You should seek medical attention right away if you have any of the
following symptoms after receiving the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine:
• Chest pain
• Shortness of breath
• Feelings of having a fast-beating, fluttering, or pounding heart.
Side effects that have been reported with the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine
include:
• severe allergic reactions
• non-severe allergic reactions such as rash, itching, hives, or swelling of the face
• myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle)
• pericarditis (inflammation of the lining outside the heart)
• injection site pain
• tiredness
• headache
• muscle pain
• chills
• joint pain
• fever
• injection site swelling
4 Revised: 25 June 2021
• injection site redness
• nausea
• feeling unwell
• swollen lymph nodes (lymphadenopathy)
• diarrhea
• vomiting
• arm pain

Then the fact sheet about moderna, same omission of neurological disorders:

https://www.fda.gov/media/144638/download

WHAT ARE THE RISKS OF THE MODERNA COVID-19 VACCINE?
There is a remote chance that the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine could cause a severe allergic
reaction. A severe allergic reaction would usually occur within a few minutes to one hour after
getting a dose of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine. For this reason, your vaccination provider
may ask you to stay at the place where you received your vaccine for monitoring after
vaccination. Signs of a severe allergic reaction can include:
• Difficulty breathing
• Swelling of your face and throat
• A fast heartbeat
• A bad rash all over your body
• Dizziness and weakness
Myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the lining
outside the heart) have occurred in some people who have received the Moderna COVID-19
Vaccine. In most of these people, symptoms began within a few days following receipt of the
second dose of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine. The chance of having this occur is very low.
You should seek medical attention right away if you have any of the following symptoms after
receiving the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine:
• Chest pain
• Shortness of breath
• Feelings of having a fast-beating, fluttering, or pounding heart
Side effects that have been reported in a clinical trial with the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine
include:
• Injection site reactions: pain, tenderness and swelling of the lymph nodes in the same arm
of the injection, swelling (hardness), and redness
• General side effects: fatigue, headache, muscle pain, joint pain, chills, nausea and
vomiting, and fever
Side effects that have been reported during post-authorization use of the Moderna COVID-19
Vaccine include:
• Severe allergic reactions
• Myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle)
• Pericarditis (inflammation of the lining outside the heart)
These may not be all the possible side effects of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine. Serious and
unexpected side effects may occur. The Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine is still being studied in
clinical trials

And, then lastly, I'll post the link to the Israeli follow up study on Pfizer vaccinations.

https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/reports/v ... 032021.pdf

It's in hebrew so here's an interpretation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1igs-ssfHAA

And, they found about 1 in 10K people experienced neurological side effects. (skip to the 12ish minute mark of the youtube video) More people had neurological side effects than had an allergic reaction, which has also made headlines. So, to recap, there's a group of people in America claiming debilitating neurological side effects from an array of vaccine makers. The FDA only lists it as a side effect for J&J. Results from Israel show about 1 in 10K people experience these symptoms for the Pfizer vax and if extrapolated to America that would be about 16,000 cases (assuming the results stand up across all vax manufacturers).

All this to say, you can rely on Israel's data to draw the conclusion there will be neuro side effects even from Pfizer (and because they're mechanism is so similar likely Moderna and Astra Zeneca). Doing that only lends credence to the stories being told by the people in the press event.

[Leroy]

Here is a list of all of the newspapers I read about these risks in:

If anyone knows about Guillan Barre, it is not a small thing. My friend has it and when they discovered it he was paralyzed from the neck down for a month or so. He was in his thirites.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

Here is a list of all of the newspapers I read about these risks in:

If anyone knows about Guillan Barre, it is not a small thing. My friend has it and when they discovered it he was paralyzed from the neck down for a month or so. He was in his thirites.

To be fair, the study I linked doesn't differentiate what the neuro symptoms are. 99% could be minor tingling in the toes for a day or two. I don't know. I can't read hebrew.

Also, haven't done any research but almost assuredly covid would prove to cause these symptoms at a higher incidence than the vax.

[GeddyWrox]

Here is a list of all of the newspapers I read about these risks in:

If anyone knows about Guillan Barre, it is not a small thing. My friend has it and when they discovered it he was paralyzed from the neck down for a month or so. He was in his thirites.

To be fair, the study I linked doesn't differentiate what the neuro symptoms are. 99% could be minor tingling in the toes for a day or two. I don't know. I can't read hebrew.

Also, haven't done any research but almost assuredly covid would prove to cause these symptoms at a higher incidence than the vax.

This is what I keep coming back to. Statistically speaking, the odds of contracting covid (without the vax) and having something horrible happen to you are ASTRONOMICAL compared to the odds of some sort of serious side effect. I'm trying to think of a proper analogy... It's like trying to run across a busy freeway to get away from a hornet that probably won't even sting you. It doesn't make sense to me.

[Leroy]

Do we know how many people of the unvaccinated have had COVID already? That would be interesting to know. You all know I had it, and was fine. I got sicker from the doses of the vaccine than I did from COVID. Maybe some people are thinking, 'I had it, why do I need a vaccination?'

[GeddyWrox]

Do we know how many people of the unvaccinated have had COVID already? That would be interesting to know. You all know I had it, and was fine. I got sicker from the doses of the vaccine than I did from COVID. Maybe some people are thinking, 'I had it, why do I need a vaccination?'

I bet you are right about some people thinking that. But studies have shown that even if you have had it, you are much much safer if you get the vax too. AW probably knows more about the specifics, but I think I remember hearing that the immune response from the mRNA vax is something like 5 times better than relying on anitbodies from having had covid (possibly much longer lasting, too).

[cardinalkarp]

Do we know how many people of the unvaccinated have had COVID already? That would be interesting to know. You all know I had it, and was fine. I got sicker from the doses of the vaccine than I did from COVID. Maybe some people are thinking, 'I had it, why do I need a vaccination?'

I bet you are right about some people thinking that. But studies have shown that even if you have had it, you are much much safer if you get the vax too. AW probably knows more about the specifics, but I think I remember hearing that the immune response from the mRNA vax is something like 5 times better than relying on anitbodies from having had covid (possibly much longer lasting, too).

That’s not what the Cleveland Clinic found to be true.

[mikechamp]

Do we know how many people of the unvaccinated have had COVID already? That would be interesting to know. You all know I had it, and was fine. I got sicker from the doses of the vaccine than I did from COVID. Maybe some people are thinking, 'I had it, why do I need a vaccination?'

I have one anecdote to share on this. Back to my good friend, who contracted the Delta strain just 2 weeks ago. He was not vaccinated. He was in the hospital for 2 days with COVID-induced pneumonia. He is out now, and slowly getting back to full strength. No longer coughing or having fevers, congestion is greatly reduced. General fatigue still a symptom. When he asked his doctor if he has immunity now, the doctor said yes... for about 90 days. Advised him to get the vaccine 30 days after positive test, which he will do.

Two quick notes:

1. This is 1 guy's experience, and one doctor's advice. I'm not trying to say it unilaterally applies to everyone. But it is a data point.

2. He & his wife did not get the vaccine because they were waiting for FDA approval. After feeling like he might die (exact quote), he will not be waiting anymore... and his wife (who never tested positive) got her first vaccination right after driving him home from the hospital.