Rave: University of Chicago

[heyzeus]

College, and getting a college degree, is just showing a future employer you can jump through hoops and do assigned work.

Getting through the college experience should be a time in which young people broaden their horizons a bit by being exposed to diversity of people and ideas that they have not previously. And (and I say this as a mega-liberal) if a college student is such a quivering little thing that he can't hear a differing opinion, even when that opinion is kind of ugly and socially back in the caveman era, then that's part of that college student's learning curve w/r/t diversity of people and ideas. That quivering little thing should be developing a shell for the real world in college that he'll carry through his life in work and the world rather than retreating from everything that offends him as a young person, which will just make him retreat and hide in life.

That's what's troubling to me. I understand the concept of, say, a rape victim wanting to avoid casual references to rape in his or her every day life. Or a combat veteran suffering from PTSD wanting warning before certain subjects of warfare come up.

But in practice, now, students are using these concepts to demand that academic debate be stifled based on viewpoint. For example, that a pro-Israel speaker's appearance be cancelled, because some students disagree with that viewpoint.

It's kind of like the first amendment, which I think is the most important thing in our constitution. It's ok to regulate the time, place, and manner of speech. You can't have people just deciding to throw a one person parade down the middle of Main Street - you need a permit, police presence, traffic control, etc. But you also can't tell that person they can't have a permit because you don't like that they are pro choice/pro life/whatever. They have a right to that opinion, even if you find it odious.

So college kids, take a cue from the first amendment. Protest that speech by the homophobic guest lecturer. Advocate for curriculum that is academically responsive to the modern world. But don't use "triggering" arguments to bully viewpoints that are not your own.

[GeddyWrox]

I am just not sure what these colleges are really preparing their students for with the "safe zones" and "trigger warnings".

Are they going to run and hide in their career when they are challenged?

There's a difference between simply having your ideas challenged, and being forced to endure topics that bring up raw emotions about things like rape, abuse, racism, homophobia. None of those things belong in a workplace at all. I believe that's the intent of most "safe places".

That's kind of what I understood, and everyone is different. So, this is surely beneficial for some people.

But, it's naive to think that rape, abuse, racism, and homophobia do not exist in the workplace and/or real world.

I didn't say they weren't in the work place. I said they don't BELONG in the work place. Making the point that we should strive to make all places -- work, school, and elsewhere -- safe from these things. I still see no reason a university shouldn't have safe spaces.

What you go on to describe about beligerent bosses and what not... yeah, we've all been there. I had a boss (that JC Shutout knows as well) yell at me so vigorously that his spittle was hitting my face. That is NOT what my point is. There are people that have been through incredibly horrible things in their lives that a lot of us haven't. Work, school, home should be places where people can be free from reliving the horrors of their past. THAT is what a safe space is all about.

[33anda3rd]

Geddy, I think here's the difference.

We can all get on the same page that a rape joke at work, whether someone hearing it is a rape victim or not, is wildly inappropriate and a matter that requires disciplinary action from HR. No one should have to endure a culture in which rape is a joke.

But if a kid reads his essay in a 101 English class to the group and he's a pro-Trump Republican who thinks we have to close off the borders, then a Mexican-American student who was smuggled across the border as an infant should have zero relief to say "I don't like this, make it stop."

[wart57]

College, and getting a college degree, is just showing a future employer you can jump through hoops and do assigned work.

Getting through the college experience should be a time in which young people broaden their horizons a bit by being exposed to diversity of people and ideas that they have not previously. And (and I say this as a mega-liberal) if a college student is such a quivering little thing that he can't hear a differing opinion, even when that opinion is kind of ugly and socially back in the caveman era, then that's part of that college student's learning curve w/r/t diversity of people and ideas. That quivering little thing should be developing a shell for the real world in college that he'll carry through his life in work and the world rather than retreating from everything that offends him as a young person, which will just make him retreat and hide in life.

And here I thought all that hard work and effort I put in to that degree, those 3 jobs I worked to pay for school, and all the time I spent studying and not partying got me ready to succeed in a career. Had I known it was just to show a future employee I could do assigned work, I would have partied a little more...

I feel ripped off!

I want those years back dammit!

[33anda3rd]

What I mean by that college degree line is that in a world in which we shift more and more and more to a service economy, if you're looking right out of college for an entry-level job in a marketing firm it doesn't matter if you studied English, Philosophy, Computer Science, or even Marketing. 50 years ago when an Engineering degree separated the engineers (white collar) from the factory workers (blue), the degree was far more important. Certainly getting a MBA or becoming a physician or attorney gives on a leg up, but for the majority of us who work in a globalized service economy there's a lot more important stuff to doing your job than what the discipline listed on your degree is.

[GeddyWrox]

Geddy, I think here's the difference.

We can all get on the same page that a rape joke at work, whether someone hearing it is a rape victim or not, is wildly inappropriate and a matter that requires disciplinary action from HR. No one should have to endure a culture in which rape is a joke.

But if a kid reads his essay in a 101 English class to the group and he's a pro-Trump Republican who thinks we have to close off the borders, then a Mexican-American student who was smuggled across the border as an infant should have zero relief to say "I don't like this, make it stop."

I agree with that. But that's more along the lines of the trigger warning thing that the safe zones. I totally agree that if a student is going to take a class that has a potential for difficult discussion topics, they shouldn't cop out of it. The safe zones are different from that (from my understanding).

[wart57]

What I mean by that college degree line is that in a world in which we shift more and more and more to a service economy, if you're looking right out of college for an entry-level job in a marketing firm it doesn't matter if you studied English, Philosophy, Computer Science, or even Marketing. 50 years ago when an Engineering degree separated the engineers (white collar) from the factory workers (blue), the degree was far more important. Certainly getting a MBA or becoming a physician or attorney gives on a leg up, but for the majority of us who work in a globalized service economy there's a lot more important stuff to doing your job than what the discipline listed on your degree is.

I have a bachelors degree in History and one in Anthropology...I am a grocery buyer. I get your meaning, but the skills I learned getting my degrees have really helped me out in my career.

But I still wish I could have some of that time back.

[33anda3rd]

There are no safe zones in life except if you hide from life in little cocoons of safety like churches and anti-abortion extremist groups and other groups that are politically aligned with you and 12-step meetings. Therefore there should be no arbitrarily drawn safe zones on college campuses. If one is a victim of rape and hears a rape joke on the quad, then the joker is an ass and should be awarded a bloody nose while being reported to the campus administration for his ugly and hurtful speech. If someone on campus is screaming about the rights of Muslims then someone who disagrees and lost their father in 9/11 needs to keep walking and let that go in one ear and out the other. There should not be drawn a box in the quad in which Anyone Who Disagrees With Me Not Just On This Topic But On Everything In Life Needs To Stay Out Because I Don't Like Challenge.

[33anda3rd]

I get your meaning, but the skills I learned getting my degrees have really helped me out in my career.

That's EXACTLY what my first comment meant. That a degree shows that you can do assigned coursework, that you can work to achieve something, that you can think.

[GeddyWrox]

Let me put it this way...

If gay or trans person takes a sociology or psychology class that clearly states they are going to dive into LGBTQ issues, they should be prepared to participate in class -- even if Donald Trump Jr is in that class claiming something horrible like "the queers should all be given the Matthew Sheppard treatment". Horrible? Yes. Triggering? Yes. But it's a possibility that someone in that class might feel that way. They shouldn't get to preemptively duck out of the class on the chance that someone might say something like that.

HOWEVER. If someone DOES say something like that, and it upsets that person, they should have a safe zone they can go to where they know there won't be judgement, resentment, hatred. They should have a place they can go to recenter themselves. If a university is willing to provide that space, why should they have it taken away??? It just seems mean spirited.