TV Thread - beware, [expletive] can get spoilery

[JL21]

which is weird in a New Quality TV landscape where Tony Soprano, Don Draper and Walt White are the protagonists, and guys like what's his name on The Newsroom are the minority as lily-white choir boys occupying protagonist roles.

Eh, it's kind of weird from a TV perspective, but:

a) It's been 14 years since The Sopranos started, so how "new" is it, really? And The Sopranos was immediately followed by The Wire and its symphony of morally conflicted characters, and it's been going on ever since.

b) people have been cheering for cinematic anti-heroes for since Bonnie and Clyde, The Godfather, Taxi Driver. So not TV, exactly, but it's hardly virgin territory.

We're kind of past the "new" stage with it. Hell, I think Low Winter Sun might be breaking the whole concept right now as it is.

[33anda3rd]

It is easy to forget that it was Skyler's idea to

[SHOW]

kill Jesse

Also

[SHOW]

who the hell says no to a dope laser tag business????

Almost as bad.

[33anda3rd]

JL--I know what you mean. I do think, though, that the TV anti-hero is a new thing that started w/ the Sopranos (maybe Larry Sanders too, one of the biggest jerks in TV history), lived through the moral ambiguity of The Wire and Deadwood, but has come full force with the two AMC shows.

From the start, Draper is a philanderer and a drunk. But we like him, and we especially respect that he's brilliant at his job. Hank is a meth cook, not yet a murderer and destroyer of lives still lived. We like him, like Draper, and respect that he's good at his job, despite the bad things he does. Over the last few seasons Weiner and Gilliagan have taken these two to darker places where they've become utter monsters, far worse than Tony Soprano or Al Swearingen or any other protagonist before, and that arc can be very very confusing for a less-critical viewer who is interested entirely in plot mechanics rather than character development. ie the guy who thought Hank's death scene was awesome and Walt finally letting Skyler fully have it over the phone was equally awesome. Those guys don't get what they're watching, en masse, and they're the morons casting un-critical "she's a [expletive]" aspersions on the Skyler character on internet message boards. If Walt had been the bad guy and the show was about Hank, Walt might be a folk-hero antagonist character along the lines of Marlo Stanfield or Omar, and Skyler would probably be a much-better-liked character. I think it's greatly to Gilligan's credit that he's able to make a story so moral, but tell it in such a morally neutral and honest way, that it elicits the kind of response that it does from an un-critical viewer.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

It is easy to forget that it was Skyler's idea to

[SHOW]

kill Jesse

Also

[SHOW]

who the hell says no to a dope laser tag business????

Almost as bad.

Stupid [expletive].

[Schlich]

It sounds like i need to watch Mad Men. I thought the first half of the first season was good but not fantastic and pushed it back until i have more time.

[Vidor]

b) people have been cheering for cinematic anti-heroes for since Bonnie and Clyde, The Godfather, Taxi Driver. So not TV, exactly, but it's hardly virgin territory.

"The Public Enemy", the original "Scarface".

As for the whole Walt-on-the-phone business, it's open to interpretation. I think the fact that he breaks down weeping at the same time he is screaming at her on the phone indicates that clearly on some level he is trying to get her off the hook. I also agree that the "you never believed in me" vitriol is sincere, rooted in the character, and based on all the rage he had bottled up inside that erupted after he embarked on a new career as a criminal.

Skyler's "...sorry" could just as easily be naked terror, or her playing along. Or, just like with Walt, both.

BTW, if the show ends with Skyler not going to prison, I'll be pissed.

Over the last few seasons Weiner and Gilliagan have taken these two to darker places where they've become utter monsters, far worse than Tony Soprano or Al Swearingen or any other protagonist before

Don Draper has an alcohol problem and is a serial adulterer. Tony Soprano and Al Swearingen are brutal murders and crime kingpins, and Al is also a pimp. Pretty sure that Don is nowhere near their league, at least not until he beats Bert Cooper to death and gets Bob Benson to start dealing heroin out of the SCP office.

[Vidor]

It sounds like i need to watch Mad Men. I thought the first half of the first season was good but not fantastic and pushed it back until i have more time.

It starts tailing off in later years and takes a nosedive in Season 6. Don goes from deeply flawed protagonist to weak, crying, drunken loser, and "Death of a Salesman" aside, pathetic losers are not compelling protagonists. You do get to see Jessica Pare in some hot outfits, however.

[thrill]

Mad Men remains a rich and compelling show.

[33anda3rd]

Over the last few seasons Weiner and Gilliagan have taken these two to darker places where they've become utter monsters, far worse than Tony Soprano or Al Swearingen or any other protagonist before

Don Draper has an alcohol problem and is a serial adulterer. Tony Soprano and Al Swearingen are brutal murders and crime kingpins, and Al is also a pimp. Pretty sure that Don is nowhere near their league, at least not until he beats Bert Cooper to death and gets Bob Benson to start dealing heroin out of the SCP office.

Sure, but he treats people as something you use and toss away/walk away from. He has ruined a lot of lives. How culpable is he in Lane's suicide?

[heyzeus]

Mad Men remains a rich and compelling show.

This.

The point of Mad Men is to pose the question - what happens when the world changes around a flawed and narcissistic individual who is convinced that his vices are virtues?

Seasons 5 and especially 6 are when we start seeing answers to that question.