The "N" word

[wart57]

and the idea that all rap music is filled with the N word. i would bet money that people who say that don't actually listen to rap music.

but hey, lets forego context and generalize everything.

Yep. Also, when it is used, it has great artistic merit. To quote my thoughts from another place on the internet:

I admire and am fascinated by the way the black cultural vanguard has always used language in an empowering way. Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker popularizing calling each other and others in the jazz community "man" because they were sick and tired of white people calling them "boy" is an empowering and cool thing. Rappers using [expletive] as a term of self-identification is not only a middle finger to racists but it also creates (or at least should create) a barrier between their art and the white consumers who love their art. It's a way of saying you can get with what I'm doing, but it's not yours, which is a very important thing, I think, because white people have always been incredibly effective at stealing culture, homogenizing it and acting like they invented it.

Cultural boundaries can be good when they're borne from respect and sensitivity. This dumb pursuit of absolute equality is lacking all perspective. Equality of opportunity is righteous and just. Equality of language lacks perspective. Wanting everyone to get to say whatever they want without consequence lacks empathy.

But when only certain people or groups of people get to say whatever they want without consequence, how have we made any advancement in society?

are we keeping in mind that the group that "gets" to say it was at one time not considered equal to their fellow (white) man? and that in this country, it was only like, 200 years ago? i think thrills quote is apt in the sense that when AA's use the word it puts them in control of the word and in a sense makes it ineffective for whites.

i'd also liken to gay people who call themselves/fellow gay people the word that starts with f and rhymes with bag. its a hurtful and disgusting word but if you, the victim, are in "control" of it, it takes the power away from those who use it to hurt.

but both words are still used for hurtful purposes so its not like these types bigotry are gone even if we are more accepting as whole in society.

maybe you have a joke with a family member that between you guys is funny, but if someone not in your family said it, it would annoy/hurt you because they aren't in your family (group). they haven't "earned" that "right" to use it in your presence.

How could I ever forget any of that? I understand the right black have to use the word, but it doesn't mean it doesn't offend me every time I hear it used. I HATE THAT WORD!

I have two siblings who are black, if anyone ever referred to them as that word, I would want to do bodily harm to that person. It kills me, I repeat KILLS me to think my brother or my sister could not achieve their dreams, whatever they are, because of the color of their skin. This world has so many problems, if we could all just be on equal ground; put all the hatred and animosity aside, the human race could do so much good. There are too many racial, social, national, religious and international divides that I can’t ever see a day where we can fix the problems in the world and EVRYONE can share in the gifts this world has to offer because we are all too worried about protecting our own.

[thrill]

I understand the right black have to use the word, but it doesn't mean it doesn't offend me every time I hear it used.

It's one thing to not want to hear the word, but you do understand the context of what it means in hip hop and what it means historically, right?

[sighyoung]

I don't want to intrude too much in this thread for many reasons, but mostly because I think the folks are the board are good people, and deserve and need to discuss stuff like this without feeling self-conscious. I'm neither a spokesperson nor expert. So here's my two cents.

Back to the beginning of the thread: Randall Kennedy's book, N*****: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word, raises similar points: he discusses where the word gained much of its stigma, but hopes that people will stop investing the word with so much power, so that its stigma will go away. I never read it, so I don't know how he thought that might be achieved.

I tend to side with thrill about the legacy of racism, particularly in connection to class. It's not just cultural background, but access to social networks, information, and so on. Even with improved race relations--and assuming all racism to be largely gone--that legacy would still be with us, since you have people even in their 40's who went to state-mandated segregated schools, were discriminated against by private businesses and state and federal programs (some of which made possible the ability to get educations and mortgages and accumulate wealth in the years after WWII). So there's a huge wealth gap that is difficult to make up, so the children of those parents are directly affected.

Secondly, not everyone has to be a rotten egg for discrimination to have a strong impact on social outcomes--for instance, economists have found that you only need a few bigots to lead to profoundly segregated communities, and such communities will adversely affect future generations--including middle-class blacks. But there are so many disproportionate outcomes--in working-class employment levels, access to education and resources, effects of drug policies and sentencing--that it will take a long time for the legacy of racism to be gotten rid of.

Mind you, I speak as a relatively privileged person--and whose privileges (in terms of education) go back four generations. And I would be the first to say how fortunate I am--much more fortunate than most.

I don't want to go on and on and on, but I will say that I don't shy away from the word in my classrooms--you can't. You have to address it, but also in a space where people feel safe to talk and explore ideas. And I think folks here are doing just that.

[thrill]

Appreciate your perspective, sigh.

[wart57]

I understand the right black have to use the word, but it doesn't mean it doesn't offend me every time I hear it used.

It's one thing to not want to hear the word, but you do understand the context of what it means in hip hop and what it means historically, right?

yes i understand the significance, I am not stupid, but how many dumb ass rednecks don't understand it? If they keep hearing rap artists using it, they will continue to argue that it must not be that bad of a word.

Funny how quotes can easily be taken out of context. by only cutting and pasting a part of my post, it make it look like I am making the use of that word about me and what I like.

[Radbird]

Appreciate your perspective, sigh.

Yes, I'm glad you decided to post.

are we keeping in mind that the group that "gets" to say it was at one time not considered equal to their fellow (white) man? and that in this country, it was only like, 200 years ago?

More like 50 years ago (and I know many still feel that way today). I grew up in the '60s with grandparents who tossed the n word around casually and with vitrol. They didn't like "colored" people, they didn't know any and they were deathly afraid. The vitrol came from "those people taking over" north STL and forcing them south.

To some extent that attitude was passed on to my parents' generation. I remember watching TV coverage of Dr. King's assassination and my mom's boyfriend walking in and saying "good I'm glad they finally got that [expletive]". But slowly, as the effects of the civil rights movement took hold, they began to see the stereotypes for what they were. My dad's breakthrough came as a jazz musician. Many of his contemporaries were African American and by playing gigs with them and getting to know them it seemed to break down the attitudes engrained in him growing up. They didn't gain that perspective until adulthood because of the barriers in place when they were growing up, but I don't recall either of my folks using that word (although they never took issues with their parents' frequent usage).

My childhood was much different - I went to an integrated HS and when you sit side-by-side in the classroom, the cafeteria or play on the same team, it's much harder to brush with the same broad stroke of prior generations. But there was still a lot of tension in general, and outside of school segregation was still present - lived in different parts of town and not much social interaction. Any interracial relationships were kept under the radar. There were bigots on both sides of the student body. It also was pretty apparent that black kids were given a much shorter leash than whites by the school administration.

Things are more open now. Our daughter grew up in a more culturally and racially diverse world than we did. Her friendships are based on common bonds, interests and goals rather than any arbitrary factors. But she still sees the effects that sigh mentions. One of her coworkers is a bit of a slouch (calls in sick a lot, doesn't want to work too hard or make too much money because she doesn't want to lose food stamps, etc.) and she's sensed an attitude from others of "well, what did you expect?' because this lady is AA. She isn't viewed as just a lazy person - her laziness is tied to her ethnicity. Even though the word isn't used, it's still not far from the "lazy [expletive]" attitude of my grandparents.

So it's getting better but as sigh said it will take a long time before we can put this completely behind us.

[The Third Man]

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[Radbird]

New York case puts N-word use among blacks on trial