NBA 10-11

[Michael]

Yeah, the Heat are a great thing for the NBA, they even have me interested.

[TheoSqua]

I personally like seeing LeBron fail, mostly because he set up this expectation that he would be able to easily win a championship with the Heat. I don't think he's hit the point where he realizes that he has to work 100% and never stop to become good enough to be a champion. He's still trying to do it with talent alone. Well, now he's trying to do it with Talent and Dwayne Wade.

But I do think the whole LeBron is underperforming/wtf thing is completely overblown.

If you compare James to Jordan at this point in their careers James has considerably more playoff success than Jordan. I seem to recall there being talk before the Bulls started winning that Jordan wasn't the sort of player you could win championships with. (Well I was six when Jordan won his first, so i guess it's second hand talk?).

In response to the playoff losses Jordan changed his game a bit, matured and worked harder, and the Bulls gave him an amazing supporting cast. Then at 28 he won his first championship....and 5 more after that.

James is still only 26 and I personally feel that he's nowhere near as talented or as good as Jordan was. So to expect him to be better than Jordan at a younger age with a lesser team (I think those early 90s teams were better than this heat team. Jordan > James, Pippen = Wade, Grant < Bosh, Chicago Bench >> Miami Bench) when he's not even as good as Jordan is a bit unrealistic.

[Socnorb11]

I personally like seeing LeBron fail, mostly because he set up this expectation that he would be able to easily win a championship with the Heat. I don't think he's hit the point where he realizes that he has to work 100% and never stop to become good enough to be a champion. He's still trying to do it with talent alone. Well, now he's trying to do it with Talent and Dwayne Wade.

But I do think the whole LeBron is underperforming/wtf thing is completely overblown.

If you compare James to Jordan at this point in their careers James has considerably more playoff success than Jordan. I seem to recall there being talk before the Bulls started winning that Jordan wasn't the sort of player you could win championships with. (Well I was six when Jordan won his first, so i guess it's second hand talk?).

In response to the playoff losses Jordan changed his game a bit, matured and worked harder, and the Bulls gave him an amazing supporting cast. Then at 28 he won his first championship....and 5 more after that.

James is still only 26 and I personally feel that he's nowhere near as talented or as good as Jordan was. So to expect him to be better than Jordan at a younger age with a lesser team (I think those early 90s teams were better than this heat team. Jordan > James, Pippen = Wade, Grant < Bosh, Chicago Bench >> Miami Bench) when he's not even as good as Jordan is a bit unrealistic.

I'm pretty sure that Jordan had won an NCAA championship and an NBA championship before he turned 27.

Edit:

I'm wrong about the NBA championship.

[st.lewis11]

James is still only 26 and I personally feel that he's nowhere near as talented or as good as Jordan was.

Theo, I understand you saying this, but I disagree with part of your statement. James is not as "good" as Jordan, but physically, but I feel James actually has more talent & physical tools. He simply lacks Jordan's drive, intensity, & will to win. I doubt we'll ever see James reach his own potential, at least not achieve the greatness that Jordan did.

[Michael]

In response to the playoff losses Jordan changed his game a bit, matured and worked harder, and the Bulls gave him an amazing supporting cast. Then at 28 he won his first championship....and 5 more after that.

I don't know much about basketball, but I don't think Jordan ever took a game off even during his younger years. He wasn't wired that way.

[thrill]

In response to the playoff losses Jordan changed his game a bit, matured and worked harder, and the Bulls gave him an amazing supporting cast. Then at 28 he won his first championship....and 5 more after that.

I don't know much about basketball, but I don't think Jordan ever took a game off even during his younger years. He wasn't wired that way.

He didn't take games off, but he was a total dick to his teammates which was a lot of the time, self-defeating. Until the talent around him developed (Scottie, Horace Grant), and he learned to trust them, they couldn't get past the Pistons.

Trusting teammates has never been LeBron's problem. His problem is three-fold. He for whatever reason, doesn't like being the number one scoring option. Secondly, he has a terrible feel for the shifts of momentum within the game. Beyond physical tools, Jordan's best asset was recognizing situations and moments and knowing how to best exploit them. Too often when his team's offense is stagnant, LeBron is hanging out on the wing and not moving without the ball. Jordan's movement without the ball was maybe the best all-time. Too often when he's being guarded by someone smaller, he pulls up for the jumper. Too often when he's guarded by someone bigger, he tries to take them to the rim. Third problem, his biggest, is that he doesn't work on strengthening his weaknesses. If he had any post moves whatsoever, he'd be unstoppable because he can go around bigs and over smalls. He's just too big an athletic mismatch. Unfortunately, while you'd see Jordan (and players today like Kobe and Derrick Rose) spend entire off-seasons adding to their games, LeBron hasn't developed any post moves in his 8 year career. He still isn't a consistent outside shooter. He's a transcendent passer and transition player and his physical tools allow him to be able to carry offenses, but he has nothing to fall back on when he's being taken out of the offense. In fact, too often he takes himself out of the offense.

I don't know what his issue is, but there seems to be a fundamental personality characteristic that prevents him from having any self-awareness whatsoever and that has affected the development of his game. He's hyper aware of others and their opinions, but he doesn't translate that to self-criticism. I'm also a little tired of every time he sucks in the playoffs, a report gets leaked that a woman in his life is banging around. First his mom, now his bottom [expletive]? It it's true, that sucks for him. The skeptic in me wonders.

James is still only 26 and I personally feel that he's nowhere near as talented ... as Jordan was

Oh hell no. I'm pulling your basketball card for that one.

[Socnorb11]

In response to the playoff losses Jordan changed his game a bit, matured and worked harder, and the Bulls gave him an amazing supporting cast. Then at 28 he won his first championship....and 5 more after that.

I don't know much about basketball, but I don't think Jordan ever took a game off even during his younger years. He wasn't wired that way.

He didn't take games off, but he was a total dick to his teammates which was a lot of the time, self-defeating. Until the talent around him developed (Scottie, Horace Grant), and he learned to trust them, they couldn't get past the Pistons.

Trusting teammates has never been LeBron's problem. His problem is three-fold. He for whatever reason, doesn't like being the number one scoring option. Secondly, he has a terrible feel for the shifts of momentum within the game. Beyond physical tools, Jordan's best asset was recognizing situations and moments and knowing how to best exploit them. Too often when his team's offense is stagnant, LeBron is hanging out on the wing and not moving without the ball. Jordan's movement without the ball was maybe the best all-time. Too often when he's being guarded by someone smaller, he pulls up for the jumper. Too often when he's guarded by someone bigger, he tries to take them to the rim. Third problem, his biggest, is that he doesn't work on strengthening his weaknesses. If he had any post moves whatsoever, he'd be unstoppable because he can go around bigs and over smalls. He's just too big an athletic mismatch. Unfortunately, while you'd see Jordan (and players today like Kobe and Derrick Rose) spend entire off-seasons adding to their games, LeBron hasn't developed any post moves in his, 8 year career. He still isn't a consistent outside shooter. He's a transcendent passer and transition player and his physical tools allow him to be able to carry offenses, but he has nothing to fall back on when he's being taken out of the offense. In fact, too often he takes himself out of the offense.

I don't what his issue is, but there seems to be a fundamental personality characteristic that prevents him from having any self-awareness whatsoever and that has affected the development of his game. He's hyper aware of others and their opinions, but he doesn't translate that to self-criticism.

James is still only 26 and I personally feel that he's nowhere near as talented ... as Jordan was

Oh hell no. I'm pulling your basketball card for that one.

Good analysis, thrill. All the way around.

[TheoSqua]

James is still only 26 and I personally feel that he's nowhere near as talented or as good as Jordan was.

Theo, I understand you saying this, but I disagree with part of your statement. James is not as "good" as Jordan, but physically, but I feel James actually has more talent & physical tools. He simply lacks Jordan's drive, intensity, & will to win. I doubt we'll ever see James reach his own potential, at least not achieve the greatness that Jordan did.

I put those last attributes in the talent pool as well. I don't think things like drive, intensity, and will to win are stuff you can just turn on and off. You either have it or you don't. So why should that be compared any differently than the physical talent that James has over Jordan?

Jordan has consistently out-performed James so far stats wise in the respective stages of their careers. If James is more talented, then there's obviously some intangible that Jordan has over James that I would quantify as talent.

I think the whole Miami thing is a perfect example. If it had been Jordan, players would be coming to him, not the other way around.

[lukethedrifter]

http://youtu.be/OunWJ1fDByE

can't get that one to embed

[TGantz]

http://youtu.be/OunWJ1fDByE

can't get that one to embed

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OunWJ1fDByE&feature][/youtube]

That was hilarious.

As for the LBJ talk, I think thrill had some great points. Why is he pulling up for an outside jumper when he has an isolation on Jason Kidd? Why is he throwing up a 3pt when he's only sort of open when they had been getting penetration with Haslem and Wade the few plays before?

I love watching the Heat fail, not just because of Lebron. I was just really turned off by the whole way that this went down. The Decision was an awful PR move. I hated last summer where they did their best T-Pain impersonation and stood there dancing at the most ghetto pep rally I've ever seen.

They made the team too top heavy. Basketball is a game of runs, and chemistry/momentum is everything. If you're just taking turns dominating the game, you can't consistently beat the good teams. They'll find a way to shut your top guys down, like how Dallas forced them to shoot outside shots. You need to have a balanced attack, and a deeper bench.