Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

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GatewaySnayke
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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by GatewaySnayke »

letsgocards89 wrote:So what was the negative effect of the tax cuts?
We've already started seeing it.
The ultimate effect of the tax cuts depends in part on how they are eventually financed. There are two options: reductions in other government programs and increases in other taxes. Borrowing indefinitely, the strategy preferred by many policy-makers, is not a long-term solution. That's because the longer policy-makers wait to pay for the tax cuts — or to give up on the exercise and simply cancel them — the more harm is imposed on the future economy from intervening budget deficits and the more the nation risks a full-blown fiscal crisis.

That danger exists because the deficit-financed tax cuts are, overall, harmful to the country's economic growth. Tax cuts themselves can have a positive direct effect on the economy; for example, they can reduce marginal tax rates and encourage people to work or save more. But tax cuts also increase the budget deficit, which has an adverse effect on economic growth over the long term because it reduces national savings, one of the key determinants of long-term productivity. Given the structure of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, various studies suggest that the net effect of these cuts is likely to be negative in the long run.

In addition to the losses from reduced economic growth, many families may suffer from increased interest rates on mortgages, car loans, and credit cards, rates that go up because higher budget deficits compete for the funds available for such lending. Conventional estimates suggest that the deficits associated with the Bush tax cuts could eventually raise long-term interest rates by between 0.5 percent and 1.5 percent, which would raise the annual payment on a $150,000 mortgage by between $500 and $2,000. Households that are net borrowers, which are more likely to have modest incomes, suffer from the increase in interest rates. Households that are net lenders, which tend to be higher income, can benefit.

Ultimately, though, continuing to finance the tax cuts by running up the budget deficit will be unsustainable because even the federal government can't borrow an unlimited amount. In the face of ongoing substantial deficits, financial markets will eventually grow worried about whether the government will be able to repay the borrowed funds
The Bush tax cuts were very shrewdly done. They masqueraded as a big cut to the middle class, but
the administration's argument conveniently omits the estate tax (which is progressive and is slated to be eliminated), the corporate tax (which is progressive and was reduced in the tax cuts), and the payroll tax (which is regressive and was not cut). When all federal taxes are considered, the share paid by high-income households will decrease significantly because of the tax cuts.


http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2005/ ... _gale.aspx

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

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docellis wrote:I refuse to stand in the regular lines at my local starbucks. I don't get starbuck's appeal. i can't imagine waiting in a realllly long line. or dealing with parking. over a cup of coffee.
I've never had to wait in line more than a couple people back. But then I never went early in the morning, except in the drive thru.

Where else do you go to get a good cup of coffee? It's great if you have a local option, but otherwise you have to go to a convenience store or a fast food joint, where it's usually badly made.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

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letsgocards89 wrote:ROFTLMAO now presidential ability is determined by their ability to run a campaign? Well, I guess that's really all you'd have to judge Obama on so I see why that would be the rationale.
Being condescending isn't going to help you.

A VP candidate getting pranked by two guys in Montreal is pretty bad though. Really bad.

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GatewaySnayke
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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by GatewaySnayke »

ghostrunner wrote:Where else do you go to get a good cup of coffee?
I've always been of the opinion that my coffee doesn't need to be good, just have enough kick to get me through the morning.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

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docellis wrote:I refuse to stand in the regular lines at my local starbucks. I don't get starbuck's appeal. i can't imagine waiting in a realllly long line. or dealing with parking. over a cup of coffee.
Call me crazy, but I think the lines are for voting, and not for coffee.

As for why I don't think this will be a blowout, yeah part of it is history. America is a "right of center" nation as a whole, and that is reflected in the paucity of electorally-dominant democrat victories in presidential elections. Obama is not LBJ the southern democrat a year after JFK was assassinated. Obama is not FDR, challenging an incumbent who had presided over the first THREE YEARS of the Great Depression. Put simply, I don't think where we are as a nation comes anywhere close to what was going on at those times.

I can't see the electoral map undergoing such a rapid and massive realignment from 2004 to now. Things are moving blue across the nation, but I just can't believe a close loss for Dems the last two elections will turn into a 200-vote electoral landslide.

As I've said before, I think it'll be close. We'll see where it all shakes out tomorrow, thankfully.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by docellis »

BenNX74205 wrote:
docellis wrote:I refuse to stand in the regular lines at my local starbucks. I don't get starbuck's appeal. i can't imagine waiting in a realllly long line. or dealing with parking. over a cup of coffee.
Call me crazy, but I think the lines are for voting, and not for coffee.

There will be lines for the free coffee.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by ghostrunner »

GatewaySnayke wrote:
ghostrunner wrote:Where else do you go to get a good cup of coffee?
I've always been of the opinion that my coffee doesn't need to be good, just have enough kick to get me through the morning.
I guess it depends why you drink it. I drink it more for the taste.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by PujolJunkie »

That whole stay up til 4 AM and let you guys know what happens with the PPP polls last night failed. 2 reasons:

I was out until midnight, saw Zack & Miri Make a Porno and Saw V, went to Steak n Shake, ate endlessly and was worn out.

Had a headache that could have killed an elephant.

Image
Barack Obama's position has become somewhat stronger since our update this afternoon. We now have him with a 5.8 point lead in the national popular vote, and winning the election 96.3 percent of the time. Earlier today, those figures were 5.4 and 93.7, respectively.

I continue to find a hair's worth of tightening on balance in the state-by-state polls -- even as Obama's position in the national trackers seems to be roughly as strong as it has ever been. This, ironically, is the exact reverse of the position we saw earlier in the week, when the national polls seemed to be tightening even as the state polls weren't.

However, Obama's win percentage has ticked upward again for a couple of reasons. Firstly, he's gotten some relatively good numbers out of Pennsylvania since our last update, with PPP and Zogby giving him leads of 8 and 14 points, respectively, and Rasmussen showing his lead expanding to 6 points after having been at 4 before. (The Zogby poll is probably an outlier, but may serve to balance out outliers like Strategic Vision on the other side).

Secondly, McCain's clock has simply run out. While there is arguable evidence of a small tightening, there is no evidence of a dramatic tightening of the sort he would need to make Tuesday night interesting.

Related to this is the fact that there are now very, very few true undecideds left in this race. After accounting for a third-party vote, which looks as though it will come in at an aggregate of 2 percent or so (after doing some work on this tonight, I concluded that I had been slightly underestimating the third-party vote before), I am showing only about 2.7 percent of the electorate left to allocate between the two major-party candidates. Even if John McCain were to win 70 perecnt of the remaining undecideds (which I don't think is likely), that would only be worth a net of about a point for him. Frankly, McCain's winning scenarios mainly involve the polls having been wrong in the first place -- because of a Bradley Effect or something else. It is unlikely that the polls will "tighten" substantially further -- especially when Obama already has over 50 percent of the vote.

It's very late, obviously, so we won't get into too much more detail, but a couple of quick notes.

--> Don't worry too much about that SurveyUSA result in Minnesota, which shows Obama just 3 points ahead. SurveyUSA's polling in Minnesota has been very, very weird all year; they've never shown Obama with larger than a 6 point lead in their likely voter model, and had McCain ahead in the state as recently as October 1st. SurveyUSA does not have a Republican lean in general, but in Minnesota, it has consistently had a huge one.

--> A couple of the national polls have now started to predict how undecided voters will behave and allocate them between the two major-party candidates. I use the versions of these surveys before any such allocations are made, as from my point of view it isn't the pollster's job to get into the prediction business (our model has its own ideas about how to handle undecideds).
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/ ... n-113.html

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by Popeye_Card »

BenNX74205 wrote:
docellis wrote:I refuse to stand in the regular lines at my local starbucks. I don't get starbuck's appeal. i can't imagine waiting in a realllly long line. or dealing with parking. over a cup of coffee.
Call me crazy, but I think the lines are for voting, and not for coffee.

As for why I don't think this will be a blowout, yeah part of it is history. America is a "right of center" nation as a whole, and that is reflected in the paucity of electorally-dominant democrat victories in presidential elections. Obama is not LBJ the southern democrat a year after JFK was assassinated. Obama is not FDR, challenging an incumbent who had presided over the first THREE YEARS of the Great Depression. Put simply, I don't think where we are as a nation comes anywhere close to what was going on at those times.

I can't see the electoral map undergoing such a rapid and massive realignment from 2004 to now. Things are moving blue across the nation, but I just can't believe a close loss for Dems the last two elections will turn into a 200-vote electoral landslide.

As I've said before, I think it'll be close. We'll see where it all shakes out tomorrow, thankfully.
Keep in mind that this is an election following 8 years of one of the least popular presidents in history. 70% of this country disapprove of the current president. That itself will swing a lot of the independants to the other side.

I don't think it will be a 200 EV landslide, but I do think Obama will top 300 EV's. It's going to be very difficult for McCain to win, even in the most optimistic of scenarios for him.

And of course keep in mind always, it doesn't take a huge edge in the popular vote to see a huge swing in the EV. Bush beat Dukakis in '88 by 325 EV's, but less than 8% in the popular vote.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

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BenNX74205 wrote:As for why I don't think this will be a blowout, yeah part of it is history. America is a "right of center" nation as a whole, and that is reflected in the paucity of electorally-dominant democrat victories in presidential elections. Obama is not LBJ the southern democrat a year after JFK was assassinated. Obama is not FDR, challenging an incumbent who had presided over the first THREE YEARS of the Great Depression. Put simply, I don't think where we are as a nation comes anywhere close to what was going on at those times.

I can't see the electoral map undergoing such a rapid and massive realignment from 2004 to now. Things are moving blue across the nation, but I just can't believe a close loss for Dems the last two elections will turn into a 200-vote electoral landslide.

As I've said before, I think it'll be close. We'll see where it all shakes out tomorrow, thankfully.
I think you may be underestimating the level of contempt in this country right now. It's unlike anything I've seen in my lifetime (I was too young to remember the late 60s). I may be wrong but I don't think there's any model that we can get this election to fit. And the polls have suggested blowout for months now.

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