"not worthy of its own thread" offseason thread

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JL21
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Re: "not worthy of its own thread" offseason thread

Post by JL21 »

dmarx114 wrote: Can this be true?

Without looking it up, it seemed like Cecil was great in blow outs, but terrible when trying to protect a lead.

Not sure what to make of that for this season.
WPA isn't repeatable or whatever, but he was genuinely bad in Win Probability Added last season. Meaning he did a lot of damage to their win probability when pitching. And it also implies- but we can't be sure using WPA alone- that he was probably especially bad in higher leverage situations.

To put how bad Cecil was in WPA in some perspective, he was 289th out of 291 relievers in WPA (20 IP or more). That's... really [expletive] bad.

Now... again... that's not really a repeatable thing. WPA will tell you a lot about how much a player impacted his team's chances in a previous year but next to nothing about future performance. So me bringing that up isn't intended as a dig on Cecil.

Truthfully, I don't know what to make of Cecil. I think he pitched better than his results. But his K rate took a nasty dive. Hitters were swinging more at him, and making much more contact. He did a good job of keeping the ball in the yard, and the percentage of hard contact was right in line with what he's normally done. I think he's a fine second LOOGY but you just have to know that there's a bust rate there and you may have to swallow a terrible season.

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Re: "not worthy of its own thread" offseason thread

Post by dmarx114 »

JL21 wrote:
dmarx114 wrote: Can this be true?

Without looking it up, it seemed like Cecil was great in blow outs, but terrible when trying to protect a lead.

Not sure what to make of that for this season.
WPA isn't repeatable or whatever, but he was genuinely bad in Win Probability Added last season. Meaning he did a lot of damage to their win probability when pitching. And it also implies- but we can't be sure using WPA alone- that he was probably especially bad in higher leverage situations.

To put how bad Cecil was in WPA in some perspective, he was 289th out of 291 relievers in WPA (20 IP or more). That's... really [expletive] bad.

Now... again... that's not really a repeatable thing. WPA will tell you a lot about how much a player impacted his team's chances in a previous year but next to nothing about future performance. So me bringing that up isn't intended as a dig on Cecil.

Truthfully, I don't know what to make of Cecil. I think he pitched better than his results. But his K rate took a nasty dive. Hitters were swinging more at him, and making much more contact. He did a good job of keeping the ball in the yard, and the percentage of hard contact was right in line with what he's normally done. I think he's a fine second LOOGY but you just have to know that there's a bust rate there and you may have to swallow a terrible season.
Yeah, I pretty much feel the same way.

289 out of 291 is incredible. And I agree he pitched better than what that stat indicates. Just a perfect illustration about how how poorly timed our bullpen was last year......very good when it didn't matter, terrible when it did.

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Re: "not worthy of its own thread" offseason thread

Post by JL21 »

The pen last year was pretty erratic. 22nd highest negative WPA events, 10th highest positive events. Measure the gap between positive and negative totals and you have the 8th largest gap between the two values in the league.

Another arm would go a long way. I like the idea of having Reyes around back there, and I think the bullpen last year on the whole was underrated... but they still need another arm. Not having Rosie is a problem.

I think the grumbling about the rotation is overstated. Carlos, Wacha, Weaver, Waino, Mikolas as your five, with Flaherty, Gant as immediate depth, plus maybe Reyes later in the year, plus Hudson or Gomber or (worst case) Mayers... There's plenty to work with there. As currently constructed, they have the 6th best batch of starting pitchers by fWAR on FG's Depth Charts, and 3rd best projected xFIP. Once someone adds Darvish, or Lynn, or Arietta, a team or two behind the Cardinals may leapfrog them. But that still puts them top 10 in overall projected rotation talent.

I get the idea behind adding another SP and I wouldn't hate it, especially if the dollars or years for Arietta/Darvish fall off a cliff. I just don't think it's a priority.

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Re: "not worthy of its own thread" offseason thread

Post by Popeye_Card »

JL21 wrote:The pen last year was pretty erratic. 22nd highest negative WPA events, 10th highest positive events. Measure the gap between positive and negative totals and you have the 8th largest gap between the two values in the league.

Another arm would go a long way. I like the idea of having Reyes around back there, and I think the bullpen last year on the whole was underrated... but they still need another arm. Not having Rosie is a problem.

I think the grumbling about the rotation is overstated. Carlos, Wacha, Weaver, Waino, Mikolas as your five, with Flaherty, Gant as immediate depth, plus maybe Reyes later in the year, plus Hudson or Gomber or (worst case) Mayers... There's plenty to work with there. As currently constructed, they have the 6th best batch of starting pitchers by fWAR on FG's Depth Charts, and 3rd best projected xFIP. Once someone adds Darvish, or Lynn, or Arietta, a team or two behind the Cardinals may leapfrog them. But that still puts them top 10 in overall projected rotation talent.

I get the idea behind adding another SP and I wouldn't hate it, especially if the dollars or years for Arietta/Darvish fall off a cliff. I just don't think it's a priority.
I'm in the same boat. Though I've never really been a fan of spending on the bullpen. Seems like most good/great bullpens and closers are organically built and not signed. I'm just not sure we have the good arms in MLB or the high minors that it would take to build it ourselves, without stealing from anticipated SP's.

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Re: "not worthy of its own thread" offseason thread

Post by Magneto2.0 »

There will be flyers taken on a starter, but for no more than two years and more likely one, before spring training. Hellickson is worth asking about.

by rhummel 1:06 PM

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What are the chances the Cardinals take a flyer on Jeremy Hellickson?
The Cardinals wouldn't be comfortable going to three years, if it took that, for Addison Reed, or perhaps Greg Holland, but they could do it. They would prefer two for free-agent relievers. They really aren't pursuing hitters in the free-market arena who want four or more years.
by rhummel 1:13 PM
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How many years are the Cards comfortable (thrilled) to sign a FA for? 2? 3? If the market starts handing out 2 year or 3 year deals to guys like Lynn, will we see the Cards jump (not necessarily on Lynn)?
Donaldson always would be in play until the Cardinals would be told that he isn't.
by rhummel 1:20 PM
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I am probably in the minority, but if the price was reasonable, I would take Donaldson for a year and try to resign him. Yes, it's a gamble, but I think he would be a perfect fit for this lineup. Put Carpenter at first, make Jose Martinez a super-sub at first and in the outfield and this lineup now looks pretty darn strong. Again, I agree the price has to be reasonable, but you're getting a tremendous player for prospects who likely haven't proven anything at the big league level. Sound like a plan? Besides, if the Cardinals win a pennant or World Series title with Donaldson, how can you say it was not worth it?
by longtimecardinalsfan 1:20 PM
As previously answered, the Cardinals would not give up all three for Yelich, who may not be better than Pham alone.
by rhummel 1:19 PM

Any chance the Cardinals would trade for Christian Yelich? It would be a good move.
Would Kelly, Flaherty, Bader and who to get the trade done?

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Re: "not worthy of its own thread" offseason thread

Post by MrCrowesGarden »

I'm really hoping the third year doesn't hold up a deal for Reed or even Holland.

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Re: "not worthy of its own thread" offseason thread

Post by Tim »

What do we make of the slow moving off season, not just for the Cards but the rest of the league as well? Everyone being cautious for the Free Agent-palooza next year?

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Re: "not worthy of its own thread" offseason thread

Post by dmarx114 »

MrCrowesGarden wrote:I'm really hoping the third year doesn't hold up a deal for Reed or even Holland.
Man, I don't really want either guy.

I guess I would take Reed, but to me, he is really just a 7th or 8th inning guy at best.

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Re: "not worthy of its own thread" offseason thread

Post by MrCrowesGarden »

dmarx114 wrote:
MrCrowesGarden wrote:I'm really hoping the third year doesn't hold up a deal for Reed or even Holland.
Man, I don't really want either guy.

I guess I would take Reed, but to me, he is really just a 7th or 8th inning guy at best.

I'm not in love with either guy, but I like both more than any other option we have right now.

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Re: "not worthy of its own thread" offseason thread

Post by misterManager »

Bullpen needs more help but I don't see the need for a starter. No one on the free agent market moves the needle in the rotation as much as Ozuna did for the lineup. I would take Darvish or Lynn, especially if a really low bar is set by the former and Lynn ends up signing for cheap, because Wacha in the pen could really make a ton of sense, but I have little faith in Darvish, Arrieta, or Lynn, to really exceed expectations for more than a year or two tops. And if you're telling me Arrieta is not signing for less than four years--hard pass. Darvish I would go four, but he's not worth the Scherzer money he will be trying to command, IMO.

And speaking of Darvish, I think the reason we haven't seen the big arms sign even still is that teams are more and more incentivized to not break the bank every offseason. This new CBA is keeping salaries down, but the free agents don't want to admit it yet. This winter seems like the first real test of the balance of power between ownership and players. Which is just to say that there's a lot of sense to not playing the fool and jumping the market with Darvish on some 30MM AAV deal, when maybe his actual signing amount means you can swoop up Lynn (or the guys the Cubs have signed), for a historical pittance, just jetstreaming off of the lower rate for the stars of the market.

JL21 wrote:
dmarx114 wrote: Can this be true?

Without looking it up, it seemed like Cecil was great in blow outs, but terrible when trying to protect a lead.

Not sure what to make of that for this season.
WPA isn't repeatable or whatever, but he was genuinely bad in Win Probability Added last season. Meaning he did a lot of damage to their win probability when pitching. And it also implies- but we can't be sure using WPA alone- that he was probably especially bad in higher leverage situations.

To put how bad Cecil was in WPA in some perspective, he was 289th out of 291 relievers in WPA (20 IP or more). That's... really [expletive] bad.

Now... again... that's not really a repeatable thing. WPA will tell you a lot about how much a player impacted his team's chances in a previous year but next to nothing about future performance. So me bringing that up isn't intended as a dig on Cecil.

Truthfully, I don't know what to make of Cecil. I think he pitched better than his results. But his K rate took a nasty dive. Hitters were swinging more at him, and making much more contact. He did a good job of keeping the ball in the yard, and the percentage of hard contact was right in line with what he's normally done. I think he's a fine second LOOGY but you just have to know that there's a bust rate there and you may have to swallow a terrible season.
Fascinating that his WPA was that low--but I absolutely believe it thinking to the early part of last season especially. Brutal to watch him out there, especially when he was put in to close for a minute there. I think it was against the Cubs, maybe the Dodgers or someone, but on ESPN...just got shelled, blew the lead, the save, everything there was to blow.

Worth knowing about Cecil is that he somehow, for the first time in his career, dominated righties last year, after historically being hell on lefties and below-average on righties. In 2017 he allowed an opponent OPS+ of 50(very good!) against righties...and 146 against lefties(extremely bad). Which makes about zero sense, and given that he was decent on the whole, WPA aside, for the year, there's reason to be hopeful that he can get back to whatever it was that allowed him to be hard on opposing lefties, and maybe keep some of the gains against RHB.

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