They mentioned "The Faction" on the game broadcast

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bronx_bird
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Post by bronx_bird »

Hackman4CyYoung wrote:
The Third Man wrote:
stlmark wrote:I remember the 'faction' from years back. Who else was apart of that group?
95% of everybody on this board.
You couldn't be more wrong. I'm not sure if even 10% of the posters at BOTB are considered "faction" members anymore.

I respect the fact that they spent their own money to thank TLR and Walt for bringing a WS to STL. Has anyone here ever done that? The group didn't think that Walt and Tony could bring STL a WS. They did and proved the faction wrong, the faction spent their own money to admit that they were wrong.

You can debate all day if you think the group was silly, but LaRussa mentioned them more than once in interviews, which is more than any other fans who post on message boards can say.
You won't find more intelligent baseball discussion than on BOTB. The posters who do or don't like TLR are very vocal about their stance, but I happen to find it refreshing to debate with someone who returns the favor with a solid argument.

I'm biased, BOTB is my home. I like this place as well but tend to lurk more, only because my posting time is limited.
I don't see why people should be expected to hand out kudos or tip the cap to any person or group who simply gains notoriety.

What's so impressive about that?

Idiots who smash whipped cream pies in the faces of senators, terrorists, 12-year olds who spray-paint cars...they get noticed, but what credit is that to their maturity or intelligence?

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Post by cardfaninfla »

Popeye_Card wrote:
GatewaySnayke wrote:Since some have asked for me to defend my position...I will.

First, I think La Russa suffers from a serious lack of communication. He doesn't seem to connect that well with his players (i.e. Rolen, Isringhausen, Mulder). The players on the 2003 team seemed to agree with me when they went to La Russa and told him he was too intense or whatever.

Second, I think that La Russa plays up his obliviousness to injuries. I got weary of people telling me that La Russa was not at fault for Isringhausen or Mulder this past year, because it's "the players decision." I guess technically it IS their decision, but it's also La Russa's priority to know that if something isn't right, he has to step in. Him and Duncan have been in professional baseball for what...35 years? I think they know when a player isn't right, yet for some reason they choose to ignore it and keep pushing.

Third, I don't care for the way he treats rookies. Look, I realize that Josh Kinney and Tyler Johnson were not doing much to have the faith put in them down the stretch last season. But, neither was Braden Looper or Jason Isringhausen for that matter. And I also don't care that Anthony Reyes had an ERA of over 8.00 last ST. The guy was ready to be a starter (so was Wainwright), yet they went with a re-tread in Ponson. Reyes was and still is a big part of the team's future, and there was more to gain from him being in the rotation than someone who had proven that they couldn't handle it.

And the whole "pitch to contact" philosophy? Totally works if your name is Jeff Suppan. If you can ring it up to 95 and then get hitters looking foolish with a changeup that is 18 mph slower, you shouldn't have to worry about getting ground ball outs. I know that ground balls are efficient and that the quicker innings would help a pitcher, but it had been working for Reyes since he was drafted, and telling him to completely alter the way he approaches a hitter seems foolish to me.

Fourth, whether it's company BS or not, even implicitly saying that you don't care how Molina hits as long as he fields is just garbage. Stinky garbage.

I hammered this out without knowing beforehand, so there are probably some other things that I don't like about Tony. This is just the basic stuff that bothers me.
I disagree with probably 80% of this. The reasons for my disagreement are the reasons why LaRussa has been successful not despite of these tendencies you list, but because of them. There are reasons why LaRussa teams often become more than the sum of their parts on paper.

Does he make mistakes? Sure. He'll be the first to tell you too. Does he have trouble communicating sometimes? Find me an effective manager who doesn't--not just in baseball, but in every line of work.

--P--
I agree popeye.

He must do a pretty decent job of communicating because he has a long list of players who have played for him that swear by him.

The treatment of rookie thing is probably the biggest thing I disagree with. I believe he went with a rookie closer at the end of the year. Reyes, no matter how many people think was ready DIDN'T win the job in spring training. Ponson outpitched him. In fact until Ponson decided he made the team and quite doing his work he actually pitched pretty well to start the year.

The "pitch to contact" mantra that we hear from LaRussa detractors all the time is overblown also. What LaRussa and Duncan preach is be efficient, use your defense and make good pitches that get quick outs. It saves pitch counts and hte bullpen. What is it that Costner says in Bull Durham, don't try to strike everyone out, strike outs are fascist. I'd rather have a guy go 9 innings throwing 105 pitches and striking out 3 while walking no one vice a guy who goes 6 innings and throws 120 pitches striking out 12 guys.

On Molina, I guess you expect the guy to say yep that Molina can play some D but if he doesn't hit .260 next year he is out of here. That would be much better right?

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Post by skmsw »

GatewaySnayke wrote:Since some have asked for me to defend my position...I will.

First, I think La Russa suffers from a serious lack of communication. He doesn't seem to connect that well with his players (i.e. Rolen, Isringhausen, Mulder). The players on the 2003 team seemed to agree with me when they went to La Russa and told him he was too intense or whatever.
I don;t disagree, EXCEPT to the extent that it is always dngerous to assume that we know how well or how poorly a manager communicates behind closed doors that we are on the other side of, inside dugouts where we have no audio, and with people we do not know (and who, for the most part, ain't sayin').
Second, I think that La Russa plays up his obliviousness to injuries. I got weary of people telling me that La Russa was not at fault for Isringhausen or Mulder this past year, because it's "the players decision." I guess technically it IS their decision, but it's also La Russa's priority to know that if something isn't right, he has to step in. Him and Duncan have been in professional baseball for what...35 years? I think they know when a player isn't right, yet for some reason they choose to ignore it and keep pushing.
I agree with this. I do not buy into the arguments advanced by some that he is responsible for players having injuries, or that the Cards have disproportionately many injuries because of him. But I would admit that it seems like he uses players who are hurt for longer than it seems, from the outside, like he should.
Third, I don't care for the way he treats rookies. Look, I realize that Josh Kinney and Tyler Johnson were not doing much to have the faith put in them down the stretch last season. But, neither was Braden Looper or Jason Isringhausen for that matter. And I also don't care that Anthony Reyes had an ERA of over 8.00 last ST. The guy was ready to be a starter (so was Wainwright), yet they went with a re-tread in Ponson. Reyes was and still is a big part of the team's future, and there was more to gain from him being in the rotation than someone who had proven that they couldn't handle it.
This is a fairly common criticism of him; I have mixed feelings about it myself. It's easy to SAY he distrusts young players or whatever, but the truth is, 24-year old rookie Anthony Reyes did start game one of the world series last year; 25 year old rookie Adam Wainwright was given the ball to get the last three outs of the NLCS against the middle of the Mets order last year. Yadi got 150 AB as a 21-year old rookie, and has been the starter since his age 22 season. He's had three and a half rookie of the year award winners, one of whom was age 20. So he does know it when he sees it . . . .
And the whole "pitch to contact" philosophy? Totally works if your name is Jeff Suppan. If you can ring it up to 95 and then get hitters looking foolish with a changeup that is 18 mph slower, you shouldn't have to worry about getting ground ball outs. I know that ground balls are efficient and that the quicker innings would help a pitcher, but it had been working for Reyes since he was drafted, and telling him to completely alter the way he approaches a hitter seems foolish to me.
We probably see this similarly. Messing with a fella who, at the time, was perfectly healthy, had good mechanics, and was blowing the ball past hitters at all levels (including major leaguers in ST 2005) is not my preferred approach.
Fourth, whether it's company BS or not, even implicitly saying that you don't care how Molina hits as long as he fields is just garbage. Stinky garbage.
I don't knnow that it's "garbage." Lots of people over-value catcher defense. but it is probably an area that I, along with you, disagree with TLR.
I hammered this out without knowing beforehand, so there are probably some other things that I don't like about Tony. This is just the basic stuff that bothers me.
Me too. For instance, I do not like the way he makes decisions on the basis of tiny sample sizes.

But there is a lot to like too. Every spring I moan about his downright bizarre choices for who to keep for the bench and who he cuts -- and every year he uses them well. Every year I am concerned about the way he is putting together the pen -- and every year he uses them well. Every year I get frustrated at how he slavishly uses the platoon splits to make a zillion pitching changes -- and every year he gets productive outings from relievers that don;t belong in the big leagues.

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Post by jim »

skmsw wrote: But there is a lot to like too. Every spring I moan about his downright bizarre choices for who to keep for the bench and who he cuts -- and every year he uses them well. Every year I am concerned about the way he is putting together the pen -- and every year he uses them well. Every year I get frustrated at how he slavishly uses the platoon splits to make a zillion pitching changes -- and every year he gets productive outings from relievers that don;t belong in the big leagues.
That's my feelings on TLR in a nutshell.

As to the injury thing, that's probably my biggest gripe with him. I think he is a little too hard of a driver when it comes to dealing with players who are borderline hurt. 3 Nights in August was very hard to read when he moved Pujols to 1B. That was just wreckless.

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Post by haltz »

You can debate all day if you think the group was silly
There's a debate?

As far as TLR goes: bench, bullpen, hit and runs, matchups and playing time, injuries (this is still the most frustrating one), veteran-icity, and some philosophical issues ... I have a problem with most of those things and how he deals with them some of the time. The fact is, as soon as Wainwright struck out Inge I kind of forgot what my points were. Not that winning the WS rendered every move by TLR and Jocketty divinely inspired, just that I really didn't care anymore, and most of it seemed nit-picky.

I can't imagine I wouldn't have the same, or more, or different issues no matter which big league team I rooted for, and I wouldn't have enjoyed so many W's since the turn of the century. Seems like we've got it pretty good with the current regime.

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Post by Popeye_Card »

haltz wrote:...and we've got it pretty good with the current regime.
It is indeed nice to have them around.

As Cardinal fans, we can look at the roster on paper over the winter with a bit of nervousness, but throughout the 2000's, we've been able to still have in the back of our minds, "Somehow, it'll work out for the best." Contrast that to how many other fans feel. No matter how good the talent looks, the team/management will find some way to screw it up.

--P--

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BillBrasky
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Post by BillBrasky »

I was gonna bring back some of the points made by the faction, on that other forum that will remain nameless, but I just stopped having nightmares! :boo:

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Post by TheoSqua »

I started reading Card's Talk back in 2003. It was a great forum up till the end of the season....and then the offseason was horrible. Then everyone ate crow when we led the league in wins. :lol:

Luckily I didn't have to worry since i mostly lurked back then.

btw, 400th post, do I get a cookie?

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Post by Brodie »

TheoSqua wrote:I started reading Card's Talk back in 2003. It was a great forum up till the end of the season....and then the offseason was horrible. Then everyone ate crow when we led the league in wins. :lol:

Luckily I didn't have to worry since i mostly lurked back then.

btw, 400th post, do I get a cookie?
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-Brodie

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Brodie wrote:Image

-Brodie
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