Has there ever been a more hollow .292?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

If people weren't upset with Matheny, they should've been. He was embarrassingly awful.

[haltz]

The title of the thread? Bashing Molina for some reason? My evidence was anti the argument.

Who's bashing? We can't look at the numbers because he happens to be doing better than his abysmal 2006?

What?

Tell me what was unclear about either question and we can go from there I guess.

[Bo Hart]

Beggars can't be choosers.

Yadi for the month of May:
AVG: .357
OBP: .372
SLG: .429
OPS: .801

June is usually is his good month. I hope he keeps it up, we need someone who can hit because Jimmy and Scottie can't seem to do it.

OK, those are great numbers. That said, from a relative standpoint, the slugging percentage and the on-base percentage still suck; they're both artificially inflated by his high batting average.

[skmsw]

People are obviously ignoring me (for what reasons I have no idea)..

Was Yadi EVER expected to hit? I don't think he was.....in this terrific string of success since 2000, we haven't had a regular catcher hit over .260, and we have 1 title, 2 pennants, and 6 division titles in a 7 year span..

No one was dogging on Matheny's inability to hit the baseball when he was here because we had players who could hit...now..

Matheny was tolerated, while he was cheap. When he reached a salary that EVEN APPROACHED league-average, he was allowed to walk, and was replaced by a player who most scouts agreed, projected out as a back-up catcher whose arm was great, whose defense was OK< and whose bat was a major questionmark.

Your point about the rest of the offense is a good one, but it does go to the point that we can't carry a good-field NO-hit catcher like we used to. The .290 BA looks fine now, his numbers are respectable. But I have a hard time it is more reflective of who he is, than 2006 was. The truth is, his true level of ability is probably in between -- in fact, in my opinion, almost EXACTLY in between.

And, once more time -- those "intangibles" are called INTANGIBLE for a reason -- there is no known association between those qualities, and winning. And his defense? Worth maybe two wins a year, a lot less than his bat will end up costing.

[GatewaySnayke]

Ball, I for one was expecting Molina to hit. After all, isn't that the point of putting someone into your lineup card that doesn't throw from the mound? The idea that catchers shouldn't have to hit is absurd in every way possible, because when you have a guy like Molina who isn't going to add much offensively, you aren't scoring as many runs as possible.

And yes, I expected Matheny to hit, and was never happy with his offensive performance. You are supposed to maximize your run scoring, not just put up enough to win. That's what got the Cardinals in their current predicament. They said, "OK, let's stop adding to the lineup because Pujols and Rolen will do enough and the other guys can chip in whatever."

Also, we can dismiss the notion that we have Yadier in there to call a game. BP disproved the theory that catchers can influence anything. He's there because he's the only thing we have and La Russa has a taste for good field/no hit catchers.

[Bo Hart]

The idea that catchers shouldn't have to hit is absurd in every way possible.

I don't really agree with that.

This is the reason we have stats like VORP, because hitting in relation to your position is an important thing that is often overlooked.

[Balltilyafall4]

Ball, I for one was expecting Molina to hit. After all, isn't that the point of putting someone into your lineup card that doesn't throw from the mound? The idea that catchers shouldn't have to hit is absurd in every way possible, because when you have a guy like Molina who isn't going to add much offensively, you aren't scoring as many runs as possible.

And yes, I expected Matheny to hit, and was never happy with his offensive performance. You are supposed to maximize your run scoring, not just put up enough to win. That's what got the Cardinals in their current predicament. They said, "OK, let's stop adding to the lineup because Pujols and Rolen will do enough and the other guys can chip in whatever."

Also, we can dismiss the notion that we have Yadier in there to call a game. BP disproved the theory that catchers can influence anything. He's there because he's the only thing we have and La Russa has a taste for good field/no hit catchers.

Ok, if you expected them to hit then it's fair to attack them..

I, otoh, haven't expected the Cardinals catchers to hit since I've understood the strategy they are trying to go with...I've always (since 2000 at least when they brought Mike in) seen whatever offense the Cards got out of the 2 position to be a plus as long as they played GG defense (which, they have)

It's not neccesarily an "absurd" idea...I mean, obviously you want every player in your lineup to be a terrific hitter...but the economics of the situation simply don't merit that fact to be true...so get a defensive catcher thats affordable who can play GG defense and get whatever you can out of him offensively....that is.....if you have good hitters up and down the rest of your lineup (which we've had in the past)....

And steve and Gateway...I never mentioned his defense or intangibles....I'm simply discussing his offense and that we really shouldn't be expecting him to carry the offense or hit 20 HR's or drive in 80 runs...he's not that type of player, he's not HERE to be that type of player...and he never will be that type of player..

The problem (again) lies in the fact that the rest of the offense blows, so NOW we need more production from the catcher position.....it's not really Yadi's fault....he'd be absolutly fine (and actually a ray of sunshine) at this point if Rolen, Pujols, and Edmonds were hitting circa 2004

[GatewaySnayke]

The idea that catchers shouldn't have to hit is absurd in every way possible.

I don't really agree with that.

This is the reason we have stats like VORP, because hitting in relation to your position is an important thing that is often overlooked.

Aye, but look at what Tony has said before. He's said that he doesn't care what Molina does at the plate. A catcher who hits a .900 OPS is different from a RF who does the same, I agree, but I don't find catchers who hit in the .600-.650 range to be much help.

[Bo Hart]

The idea that catchers shouldn't have to hit is absurd in every way possible.

I don't really agree with that.

This is the reason we have stats like VORP, because hitting in relation to your position is an important thing that is often overlooked.

Aye, but look at what Tony has said before. He's said that he doesn't care what Molina does at the plate. A catcher who hits a .900 OPS is different from a RF who does the same, I agree, but I don't find catchers who hit in the .600-.650 range to be much help.

Well, Tony has said a lot of dumb things (eg: "I would date So Taguchi if I were a female.").

[GatewaySnayke]

Ball, the comment about Molina's game-calling was not directed at you. My apologies if it seemed that way.

And sure, if a guy is cheap like Molina is, it isn't so bad.

But I think a lot of people who are getting defensive about Molina are forgetting that this isn't a bash Molina thread. As haltz said, it's just showing how he arrived at his numbers and they seem to be showing that his .292 is built on a lot of smoke and mirrors.