They mentioned "The Faction" on the game broadcast

Post by **TheoSqua** » March 12 07, 9:14 am

I wish I were as cool as Gateway, he just got quoted 4 posts in a row

ghostrunner · Post by **ghostrunner** » March 12 07, 9:26 am

I find it difficult to credit or blame managers for much beyond pitching changes. Players have to execute, and they're obtained by the GM with some input from the manager. Even the best team or GM has to make do with some mediocre players. The manager has to use those players some of the time and you can't always reserve those for blowouts.

I think a bad manager can cost a team by not handling attitudes well and overworking pitchers (Dusty), but I don't think there's much difference between an "average" or "great" manager. I also think baseball managers have much less impact on games than their counterparts in the NFL and NBA.

jim · Post by **jim** » March 12 07, 9:33 am

ghostrunner wrote:I find it difficult to credit or blame managers for much beyond pitching changes. Players have to execute, and they're obtained by the GM with some input from the manager. Even the best team or GM has to make do with some mediocre players. The manager has to use those players some of the time and you can't always reserve those for blowouts.

I think a bad manager can cost a team by not handling attitudes well and overworking pitchers (Dusty), but I don't think there's much difference between an "average" or "great" manager. I also think baseball managers have much less impact on games than their counterparts in the NFL and NBA.

I go quite a bit beyond simply pitching changes. If you are asserting that the on the field strategy and lineup construction is overplayed by the average Joe, I agree. I would say the biggest part of a managers job can't really be quantified, or seen. We like to focus on the things we can see, because we really can't judge the other things.

Leroy · Post by **Leroy** » March 12 07, 9:40 am

As I remember it, flying a banner was planned, even as far as renting a plane, but I don't think it ever happened.

What did happen, was that an ad was placed in something called the Riverfront Times. In the ad, Jocketty was actually misspelled, but no one knew whether it was the faction's fault or the newspaper.

ghostrunner · Post by **ghostrunner** » March 12 07, 9:40 am

jim wrote:
ghostrunner wrote:I find it difficult to credit or blame managers for much beyond pitching changes. Players have to execute, and they're obtained by the GM with some input from the manager. Even the best team or GM has to make do with some mediocre players. The manager has to use those players some of the time and you can't always reserve those for blowouts.

I think a bad manager can cost a team by not handling attitudes well and overworking pitchers (Dusty), but I don't think there's much difference between an "average" or "great" manager. I also think baseball managers have much less impact on games than their counterparts in the NFL and NBA.
I go quite a bit beyond simply pitching changes. If you are asserting that the on the field strategy and lineup construction is overplayed by the average Joe, I agree. I would say the biggest part of a managers job can't really be quantified, or seen. We like to focus on the things we can see, because we really can't judge the other things.

Right, I meant in a win-or-lose game situation. I don't think they cost you a game, and if they do it's because they brought the wrong guy in at the wrong time, something that isn't known until after the fact.

I think LaRussa's preparation is important and by and large I think he handles the club well. If he angers a player here and there, that's fine. Any manager with any sort of courage will do that. He pretty much follows the percentages in terms of matchups, though I do think he puts too much stock at times in who's "hot" or "cold."

The complaint of the faction was always that Larussa cost this game or that game, which is just silly.

Hungary Jack · Post by **Hungary Jack** » March 12 07, 9:49 am

Leroy wrote:As I remember it, flying a banner was planned, even as far as renting a plane, but I don't think it ever happened.

What did happen, was that an ad was placed in something called the Riverfront Times. In the ad, Jocketty was actually misspelled, but no one knew whether it was the faction's fault or the newspaper.

That has CT written all over it.

The Faction = Lunatic Fringe

skmsw · Post by **skmsw** » March 12 07, 10:09 am

Leroy wrote:As I remember it, flying a banner was planned, even as far as renting a plane, but I don't think it ever happened.

What did happen, was that an ad was placed in something called the Riverfront Times. In the ad, Jocketty was actually misspelled, but no one knew whether it was the faction's fault or the newspaper.

The banner flyover is real; it did happen. It said "Save our Cards, Fire LaRussa and Jocketty." It flew over a spring training game in 2004.

The Riverfront Times is (or was, at least, at the time) a free weekly newspaper that focused on local politics and entertainment. They took out an ad, and "Jocketty" was indeed misspelled. The Faction said that they spelled it correctly in their copy and the paper mis-spelled it in the typeset; I believe that the paper denies this and has never issued any correction or apology.

Other than admitting to myself having been the Founder of the Faction Faction -- a counter-counter culture group -- I'll let this informative little post be the last I ever mention of any of it again.

greenback44 · Post by **greenback44** » March 12 07, 10:16 am

Leroy wrote:As I remember it, flying a banner was planned, even as far as renting a plane, but I don't think it ever happened.

I believe they flew it over Busch during the middle of one of the big winning streaks in the second half of 2001.

Post by **Radbird** » March 12 07, 10:17 am

I think there is a difference between liking LaRussa and enjoying the results his tenure has brought to the Cards. While it is hard to dispute the latter, he gives those who don't care for him plenty of ammunition.

As Theo mentions, boneheaded moves and overmanaging games are a couple of examples. But I don't feel those are unique - anyone who would have their jobs as publicly scruntinized as TLR would be lucky to come off as well as he does.

My main criticism centers around the "pride" issue as Theo called it. While fault can be found with both TLR and Rolen, Tony's the manager and it's his job to keep rifts like this from developing. Same with the Ozzie thing. Ozzie has been a complete butthead through this whole thing, but Tony's lack of diplomacy surely exacerbated the situation.

Sorry I didn't quote you, Theo, but I did reference your post several times.

BW23 · Post by **BW23** » March 12 07, 10:20 am

Was it 2004 when the Cards hit a rough stretch, big losing streak then suddenly went on a roll?

Whenever that was, that's when the banner flew. Everyone probably would have agreed with what was said at the time it was planned. Because of the timing, it looked really bad.

More power to people that want to spend their money that way. I'd never waste it on something that stupid, though.

As for the ad, it was the Faction's fault on the incorrect spelling of Jocketty. I know that for a fact.