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skmsw
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Post by skmsw »

heyzeus wrote:
greenback44 wrote:I don't see what's so bad about this article. Granting that losing Jason Marquis is a positive and Josh Kinney wasn't particularly important a year ago, the Cardinals pitching staff right now is basically Chris Carpenter, Josh Hancock and 10 question marks.
That's a bit of an exaggeration.
I don't think it is. Some, maybe most, who knows maybe even ALL of those questionmarks will be answered positively, but they are indeed questionmarks.

Carp -- no real questions

Wells -- is he healthy? is he the 6.00 ERA guy of the past two years?
Wainwright -- how is he a second-third time through? can he get lefties?
Reyes -- is he better than the 5.00 ERA of 06? Where did the mph go?
Looper -- can he get out lefties enough to start, can he go 5+ IP?
Thompson -- how is he 2-3 times through the lineup with one pitch?
Mulder -- will he come back from rotator cuff surgery? Any good?

Izzy -- izzy healthy? if so, izzy still effective? Turns 35 this year . . .
TJ -- pitched to 1 batter at a time; we don't know WHO he really is
Flores -- pitched to 1 batter at a time; we don't know WHO he really is
Hancock -- regress to the mean? or for-real utility bullpen arm?
Springer -- age 38, and nursing injuries. Will he be durable? effective?

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Post by Fat Strat »

heyzeus wrote:
greenback44 wrote:I don't see what's so bad about this article. Granting that losing Jason Marquis is a positive and Josh Kinney wasn't particularly important a year ago, the Cardinals pitching staff right now is basically Chris Carpenter, Josh Hancock and 10 question marks.
That's a bit of an exaggeration.
I'm not sure whether it is or not. Let's see.

1. Carpenter
2. Wells = strong ?
3. Reyes = ?
4. Wainwright = ?
5. Looper = strong ?

6. Franklin = ?
7. Hancock
8. Tyler Johnson = ?
9. Flores
10. Springer = ? (imo, injury risk and very checkered history)
11. Thompson
12. Izzy = ?

So, that's 8 ?'s and 4 that aren't. But, two of those 4, Flores and Hancock, don't qualify as ?'s because we know roughly what to expect from them and we know that we shouldn't expect much. So, in one sense, they are ? marks from a producton standpoint.

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Post by longhornbaseball »

First, I must say to the board, this is the first post I've made in months where I actually thought more than 5 minutes about what I was going to say. I've been incredibly busy with school and its taken serious time away from baseball crap. I'll talk much more about Reyes, Wainwright, and the rest of the team when I make my annual prediction thread a week or so before opening day.
skmsw wrote:He was hitting (not sitting) 91 this week. And yes, that IS like last year, when he worked 88-91 -- and when he gave up rather a lot of homers, had an ERA of 5, pitched well enough to earn an ERA of more like 5 and a half (see: FIP), and admitted he couldn't throw as hard as he used to and didn't know why. So, being where he left off last season is no particular accomplishment so far, in my eyes.

Til he is sitting 92-94, and hitting 95+ at least a couple-few pitches per start, he still is not the same as he was exiting 2005, regardless of whether due to pitch selection, mechanics, injury, fatigue, or the lunar cycles. Mind you, I'm NOT saying he can't be a good pitcher exactly the way he is. But even if only in my eyes, the mystery of where his explosive stuff and late movement and above-average velocity all went is very much still out there.
I don't know what games you saw but every one I saw of Reyes in 2005, both Spring and in Memphis, he didn't sit 92-94. He sat 90-93 with three or four 94's and one or two 95+'s. Now this may not sound like much but a few mph's here or there go a long way in how you frame your case.

The same with last year. You say he sat 88-91 but I can prove (I charted Reyes' starts in StL last year) that he hit 92 on the gun more times than he hit 88 (and 93 more times than 87). OK, 1 mph, big deal. But now he's gone from once sitting 92-94 and losing 3-5 mph on his fastball to siting 88-92 and losing 1-2 mph on his fastball. A few mph on a radar gun can turn mole hills into mountains.

Did he lose a little velocity on his fastball last year? Yes. Do I believe it is something to be very concerned about? No. He still missed bats (in both the minors and majors) and still had late life and movement that made is fastball look harder than it was. I can't judge Reyes' spring until I see him start (should be starting on the 20th, 25th, and 30th which are all TV games).
skmsw wrote:I think you should care. Rather a lot, actually. First off, if his velocity dropped 3-5 miles an hour for no reason from Fall 2005 til Spring 2006, what are the chances that it will just stay where it is -- instead of continuing to drop, or giving out altogether?

Second off, I agree with you that we should not look only at velocity. The whole package does indeed matter -- pitchers with three good pitches and great command can be average or even dominant sitting at 88-91. But looking at his whole packkage, it's important to remember that not only the velocity fell.

Reyes was a great prospect not only because he had electric stuff (which in 2005 he did, but which in 2006 we rarely saw); he also had dynamite command and plus control. Through his minor league career he walked 1.81 batters and allowed 0.79 homers per 9 innings; last year he was double both of those.

Maybe this is just learning curve stuff, or small sample size stuff, and he will simply locate better this year and moving forward. But I'm a little concerned that his velocity AND his control AND his command were ALL down. High pitches that we think were missed location -- used to get past hitters, but he has openly admitted that he can't reach back for that anymore. Corners he used to paint he was missing in 2006; pitches that used to move late are not doing what he expected them to do right now.
If his velocity, command, AND control were all actually different last year, then why don't his minor league stats bear that out? You'd think that a guy who'd lost significant velocity, command, and control on his fastball would perform much worse in the same setting that he did when he had all of those things, wouldn't you?

The numbers don't bear that out. In AAA, Reyes gave up HR's and H's at roughly the same rates he did in '05. His K9 dropped (about 1/2 a K per start) which may have been something to worry about had his BB's not dropped even more (greater than 3/4 less per start than in '05). He dominated the PCL like Carp dominates the NL. So why did his numbers change so much when he made the jump to the majors?

Any number of reasons. Being forced to throw the ball differently, having to use a pitch he wasn't comfortable with, facing tougher competition that didn't whiff on his change as much, etc.... I don't want to say Duncan is ruining Reyes but is it just coincidence that all of the command troubles have come under Duncan? Just a question to think about. There's no way to correctly answer this.

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Post by greenback44 »

Nice post, LHBB. One thing about Reyes worth mentioning though is that the AAA umpires were different in 2006.
Fat Strat wrote:9. Flores

11. Thompson
Flores was hurt a year ago and had the numbers to show for it. He's kind of fringy as it is and the Cardinals have a host of other lefties, so it wouldn't shock me if he got dumped either in March or in June.

I like Thompson, but he was demoted after struggling last season and, more importantly, his role is unsettled at this point. OK, the role thing is a little unfair to him, especially since the odds are pretty good he'll be a primary setup guy. Can I get away with calling him a semi-question mark?

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Post by skmsw »

I don't know what games you saw but every one I saw of Reyes in 2005, both Spring and in Memphis, he didn't sit 92-94. He sat 90-93 with three or four 94's and one or two 95+'s. Now this may not sound like much but a few mph's here or there go a long way in how you frame your case.
I'd have to go back and check my notes for number of games I saw and exact counts, but I think I saw at least 12 minor league starts in 05. He was sitting at least 91-93, he was going 95+ on half a dozen pitches or more a game some games. His two-seamer was close to the same velocity as his four-seamer, just the movement was different. All of these things are things I've been saying on this forum for 9 months now; I point that out NOT because it makes anything so, but because all of these same observations were recently shared by Reyes himself and others in the newspaper; he admitted that HE feels like his 4-seam fastball didn't have the same velocity in 06 as he is used to, still doesn't now, and that he does not know why but he has been unable to get it back.
Do I believe it is something to be very concerned about? No. He still missed bats (in both the minors and majors) and still had late life and movement that made is fastball look harder than it was.
OK. That's all fair enough. Personally, I see it differently. I thought his fastball was lacking the life in 06 that I'd seen in 05. I commented often last year that he just did not look the same. Not to same I'm right, or that you're wrong; we observed him differently. His pitches simply were not as liovely and were not as explosive.
If his velocity, command, AND control were all actually different last year, then why don't his minor league stats bear that out? You'd think that a guy who'd lost significant velocity, command, and control on his fastball would perform much worse in the same setting that he did when he had all of those things, wouldn't you?
That's a fair point. It's possible that the quality of his changeup might make him look disproportionately good in 10 or 12 minor league starts; minor league hitters are a lot more likely to be messed with in that way (as I think you yourself also suggested). Still in all, though, you make a fair point.

I'll also note the irony: the numbers say he was fine in the minor leagues, but my eyes do not trust the numbers, because his approach and delivery look different to me, and the quality of the pitches themselves look different to me too.
Any number of reasons. Being forced to throw the ball differently, having to use a pitch he wasn't comfortable with, facing tougher competition that didn't whiff on his change as much, etc.... I don't want to say Duncan is ruining Reyes but is it just coincidence that all of the command troubles have come under Duncan? Just a question to think about. There's no way to correctly answer this.
We agree on a lot of this. But my concern is, seeing him pitch in July-Aug-Sept of 06, he just did not have the same velocity or movement or life. And it was not all pitch selection. We KNOW it was not all pitch selection; he has SAID that when he reaches back for the 4-seam fastball, it is not there anymore. In my opinion, right now he's not the same. He might still be very good the way he is, and/or he might still get back to what he was -- but right now, in my opinion he is not the same.

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Post by Fat Strat »

I like Thompson, but he was demoted after struggling last season and, more importantly, his role is unsettled at this point. OK, the role thing is a little unfair to him, especially since the odds are pretty good he'll be a primary setup guy. Can I get away with calling him a semi-question mark?
I honestly think that you can make a strong case that everyone not named Carpenter is a question mark. As is everyone on offense except Pujols and Rolen, and possibly Molina. (He can't get worse, can he?)

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Post by longhornbaseball »

greenback44 wrote:Nice post, LHBB. One thing about Reyes worth mentioning though is that the AAA umpires were different in 2006.
In relation to that, the PCL was a little friendlier to pitchers in '06 than it was in '05 (though not nearly enough to make up for Reyes' performance gap). I'm sure the Umpires had something to do with that.

And as for all the question marks on the Cards staff, I ask this. How many pitchers in this league don't have question marks? Maybe 15-20%? That's why they're so hard to project.

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Post by skmsw »

on March 7, the P-D wrote:His fastball was described as "effortless" and "easy 94 mph" by one opposing manager in the minors. Reyes wanted to hear the gun's reading confirmed his sizzle. He said he stopped asking last season.

"The fastball wasn't the speed I'm used to throwing it at," Reyes said Tuesday while discussing his erratic 2006 season. "To me, I don't think I had a good year. I battled as best I could. I tried to correct things and get stronger. I tried to get my arm back to what it used to be. It's definitely not the way I throw, the way I'm used to throwing" . . .

Two pitches gave him trouble all summer:

— The sinker he was asked to develop in the spring and employ through the season, but struggled to get a feel for.

— The four-seam fireball that was his featured pitch, the pitch that moved him to the majors, but lacked its velocity when he got there. . .

He started the year in Class AAA with that homework assignment. It wasn't entirely new. Reyes had a two-seamer. It was his "straight pitch," the one he would fire that had no movement on it. When he got to college, hitters told him it "was the slowest 95 mph" they had ever seen. Coaches showed him the four-seam fastball. Pumping that pitch high in the zone, Reyes found he had the same velocity, but a late explosiveness to the pitch.

That was the pitch that electrified his 2005 spring training starts. . . .

Reyes is done talking about the straight-brimmed cap he wears. Old news. His fashion is what it is. He thinks it became too much of a story in the World Series. He feels his pitching story is better: Distrusting of his command of his fastball all season, Reyes started throwing more and more changeups so he didn't walk anyone.

Detroit's batters knew it and sat there waiting for the change.

So, Reyes exploited them, finding a fastball he could control.

But it wasn't the fastball he'd known. When Reyes was in the minors he carried that 95-mph, radar-gun reputation. Last year, his fastball sat at 89-90 mph. To rediscover those missing miles, he worked on his legs this winter, adding strength he believes will help his drive to the plate.

In his first start of spring, on Sunday, Reyes' fastball hummed from 89-90 mph. It could improve with arm strength. But he had an at-bat that reveals how he's evolving as a pitcher. With a runner at third base, Reyes got Florida's Miguel Cabrera to foul off a series of well-placed four-seam fastballs — good signs, Reyes said. He then fed Cabrera a sinker.

The all-star grounded out to shortstop.

It's the result he wanted with the pitch he's come to understand and trust. But he believes his right arm can still pack heat.

"Oh yeah, oh yeah," Reyes said. "I'm never going to give up on that."
Last edited by skmsw on March 12 07, 10:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by planet planet »

Fat Strat wrote:
I like Thompson, but he was demoted after struggling last season and, more importantly, his role is unsettled at this point. OK, the role thing is a little unfair to him, especially since the odds are pretty good he'll be a primary setup guy. Can I get away with calling him a semi-question mark?
I honestly think that you can make a strong case that everyone not named Carpenter is a question mark. As is everyone on offense except Pujols and Rolen, and possibly Molina. (He can't get worse, can he?)
I'd add Juan to that list.

I'd also add that pitchers are delicate buttercups.

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Post by greenback44 »

longhornbaseball wrote:And as for all the question marks on the Cards staff, I ask this. How many pitchers in this league don't have question marks? Maybe 15-20%? That's why they're so hard to project.
This is a valid point, but it isn't binary here. When your #2 starter is apparently Kip Wells, your closer hasn't pitched in a game since the NL East forced hip surgery on him and your 8th inning guy is apparently either Russ Springer or a guy who got demoted midseason last year, then you probably have more questions than most.

One thing I will say is that this isn't 2003. Those guys weren't questions because they were just plain bad.

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