TV Thread - beware, [expletive] can get spoilery

[thrill]

It's a LOT like a soap opera. Less so for the past season or two, but it revels in soap opera tactics. That show runs on adultery and Don Draper's double super secret past life.

That's not to say that I disagree about it being a very well-written show, rich in subtext, etc... But "not like a soap opera" is the last way I'd ever describe it.

I don't think you watch a lot of soap operas. I dont either, but I have back when my girlfriend in college was obsessed with something called "Passions." Soap operas use plot devices to titilate and make bored, dumb people tune in every day with no discernable purpose or jumping off point. Mad Men uses plot devices to explore themes like identity, childhood, trauma, loneliness, death, hopelessness/futility and the rest of the big bad questions.

So I guess I don't disagree with you, but I resent the implication that it's comparable. It's like saying the Cardinals are similar to my High School team because we used bats, gloves and sunflower seeds too.

I do think it's the best writing on TV. Not the best dialogue (Justified), but best writing. Maybe best-authored is the way to put it.

Exactly. It would be hard for me to say it's my favorite show. I like Justified's dialog and likable characters, I like Game of Thrones scope and escapism, I like Top Gear's childish enthusiasm for something stupid like $400,000 cars, I like the way Nathan For You makes me laugh like nothing since Curb. Mad Men is bleak but what I love about it (and Breaking Bad) is how it reassures me that the show is smarter than me, the writers/show runner know exactly where it's going and what they're trying to communicate and that if I stay with it, it's going to come to a meaningful conclusion, unlike shows out there like the Walking Dead, Boardwalk Empre, The Killing etc.

[JL21]

That's a fair enough assessment, although I think that analogy is a bit extreme.

Honestly, if that show didn't have adultery and Don's past life, where would it be? They're not insignificant to the show, even if the writers use it to tremendous effect. It wouldn't even exist without those things.

[ghostrunner]

It's a LOT like a soap opera. Less so for the past season or two, but it revels in soap opera tactics. That show runs on adultery and Don Draper's double super secret past life.

That's not to say that I disagree about it being a very well-written show, rich in subtext, etc... But "not like a soap opera" is the last way I'd ever describe it.

Seems like adultery has been less of a big deal the past several seasons, and I think the secret life was always handled in a realistic, non-sensational way. It tortured him, but it wasn't like there was ever some prolonged blackmail plot. Any time it was revealed, it was just like "eh, no big deal" until it came time to admit everything to Betty. Which I thought was also really well handled.

I did think when it got to Roger and Joan, and whoever's baby that was, it came a little too close. But since then it's been fine.

[thrill]

That's a fair enough assessment, although I think that analogy is a bit extreme.

Take it easy. We won Conference and went to Sectionals, dogg.

Honestly, if that show didn't have adultery and Don's past life, where would it be? They're not insignificant to the show, even if the writers use it to tremendous effect. It wouldn't even exist without those things.

Well like I said, I'm not denying that hidden identities and adultery are soap opera tropes, but just because something is identified with something that is universally recognized as low art doesn't mean it isn't compelling or useful in the creation of a higher art form. Larry Flynt's images of naked women and Picasso's are almost unrecognizable as the same thing, but they ultimately are. They're just portrayed differently and used to convey different interpretations of the same thing.

So I guess my response to your accusation is, so what? It's still great.

[JL21]

I can get behind that. And I'll add that it's been a lot better about that stuff the last few years, which is also why I think the last two seasons have been so much better than the first three.

I'll also admit that I have a chip on my shoulder about that show because I think it gets a lot of accolades that Breaking Bad deserves. I think BB is so much better as a show, because of the writing.

[thrill]

I get that about how it relates to Breaking Bad and how Mad Men dazzled early with superficial style and a dramatic hook while BB took some time to find it's groove which led to Mad Men winning all of the awards early (other than best actor which Cranston dominated over God's favorite Cards fan), but in the last 30 minutes I'm encountering something else that supports your point of view too.

I've been on twitter and read two Mad Men reviews since our first exchange this morning and the brain boners and annoying English major-enthusiasm with which people are discussing the themes of Mad Men (both reviews at Grantland & Vulture really focused on the use of the word "grok" which can't be a coincidence and even if it is, is still very show-offy) makes me want to not participate in that conversation. So in addition to the themes of the show being depressing, they've led to this circle jerk of writers writing for writers writing for readers who think they can be writers. The pseudo-intellectual memeish way the new internet consumes culture on sites like Grantland, Vulture, Slate etc has a way of taking over my point of view and slanting my opinions because I eat that kind of high brow analyzing of low brow subjects like sports and tv up (can't get enough of it), but sometimes I can see how it's more fun/appealing to just dismiss it as an over-wrought soap opera for the hip, young people because some of the resulting cultural conversation is just really annoying and self-congratulatory for getting it without having to have it explained.

[heyzeus]

Question: What name was on the lighter that Don must've accidentally switched with the young private who got married?

[JL21]

According to a re-cap I saw today, "Dinkins".

I also found this:

The Zippo lighter: Let's tarry a little longer with the Zippo. How did Lt. Don Draper -- the real Lt. Don Draper -- die? From a Zippo lighter. Remember that scene? The mortar round has ended, and both Whitman and Draper relax to have a smoke. But gasoline is everywhere (a Whitman mistake) and the explosion occurs . . . Draper is burned beyond recognition, and Don, er, Dick, has his new identity. So the lighter of course represents a multitude of things for Don and us -- a light, as in symbolic; a new identity; a lie; the beginning of this particular journey; and of course most of all, it represents death.

[heyzeus]

According to a re-cap I saw today, "Dinkins".

I also found this:

The Zippo lighter: Let's tarry a little longer with the Zippo. How did Lt. Don Draper -- the real Lt. Don Draper -- die? From a Zippo lighter. Remember that scene? The mortar round has ended, and both Whitman and Draper relax to have a smoke. But gasoline is everywhere (a Whitman mistake) and the explosion occurs . . . Draper is burned beyond recognition, and Don, er, Dick, has his new identity. So the lighter of course represents a multitude of things for Don and us -- a light, as in symbolic; a new identity; a lie; the beginning of this particular journey; and of course most of all, it represents death.

I totally forgot about that detail. You need an encycolpedic memory of like 7 years of this show to get all of the references it makes to itself.

As for the soap opera debate - when you get down to it, isn't every drama a gussied-up soap? Mad Men probably delves deeper into the soap tropes because of the whole stolen identity story at the core of its lead character.

btw, has it ever bothered anyone else that the basic conceit of Mad Men is lifted straight from that Simpsons episode where Principal Skinner turns out to really be Armin Tamzarian? Best of all, the Simpsons writers made fun of themselves for such a far fetched plot.

[JL21]

has it ever bothered anyone else that the basic conceit of Mad Men is lifted straight from that Simpsons episode where Principal Skinner turns out to really be Armin Tamzarian? Best of all, the Simpsons writers made fun of themselves for such a far fetched plot.

I almost spit out my water.