Socnorb11 wrote:Sunday's game was pretty prototypical NFL quarterbacking, really. Tebow only ran the ball 4 times. You might say he only threw 15 times, but that's how John Fox has always run his offense, not just for Tebow. Fox has always been a run first and play great defense coach. He's not really building THAT philosophy around Tebow. Tebow showed that he can stand in the pocket and throw the ball downfield, and do it well. Will he do that every single week? Well, there's no guarantee...... but he showed that he can do it.
At what point to the skeptics admit that maybe he "can" play quarterback in the NLF? That's not a rhetorical question, it's a real question. When does the "test" end? I agree taht he hasn't completely proven it yet, but I think he's already accomplished more as a quarterback than many of the skeptics said he would.
80ish of his 200 yards were YAC. A dump-off followed by a 45 yard run does not convince me he can play quarterback in the NFL. When does the "test" end...I dunno. Maybe when I see his completion percentage get above 60% and see him consistently and effectively throw down field. Any quarterback can have a good win/loss record for half a year with a defense playing as good as Denver's has in the last 6-7 games; especially against mediocre (at best) teams.
Where do you find YAC numbers for quarterbacks? What is typical?
Edit: It looks like 48% of Tom Brady's yards were YAC. 45% for Roethlisberger. 45% for Cutler. 43% for Tebow.
So Tebow has actually had fewer YAC than all of those guys. So you may think his yards are coming on "dump-offs", but that's not really true. In fact, it's less true for him than it is for almost any QB.
lukethedrifter wrote:why isn't Von Miller getting the credit that Tebow is getting?
Well, he didn't get any credit this week because he didn't play.
But Broncos fans are well aware of (and ecstatic about) the impact that Von Miller is making this season.
I'm not sure who you are referring to, specifically, but I have said numerous times in this thread that the defense doesn't get the credit that they deserve.
Socnorb11 wrote:Sunday's game was pretty prototypical NFL quarterbacking, really. Tebow only ran the ball 4 times. You might say he only threw 15 times, but that's how John Fox has always run his offense, not just for Tebow. Fox has always been a run first and play great defense coach. He's not really building THAT philosophy around Tebow. Tebow showed that he can stand in the pocket and throw the ball downfield, and do it well. Will he do that every single week? Well, there's no guarantee...... but he showed that he can do it.
At what point to the skeptics admit that maybe he "can" play quarterback in the NLF? That's not a rhetorical question, it's a real question. When does the "test" end? I agree taht he hasn't completely proven it yet, but I think he's already accomplished more as a quarterback than many of the skeptics said he would.
80ish of his 200 yards were YAC. A dump-off followed by a 45 yard run does not convince me he can play quarterback in the NFL. When does the "test" end...I dunno. Maybe when I see his completion percentage get above 60% and see him consistently and effectively throw down field. Any quarterback can have a good win/loss record for half a year with a defense playing as good as Denver's has in the last 6-7 games; especially against mediocre (at best) teams.
Where do you find YAC numbers for quarterbacks? What is typical?
Edit: It looks like 48% of Tom Brady's yards were YAC. 45% for Roethlisberger. 45% for Cutler. 43% for Tebow.
So Tebow has actually had fewer YAC than all of those guys. So you may think his yards are coming on "dump-offs", but that's not really true. In fact, it's less true for him than it is for almost any QB.
Seriously? You're right, he throws the ball downfield as well as Brady and Rothlisberger. Probably Rogers too. How many completions beyond 25 yards? Hell, how many attempts beyond 25 yards?
He has a completion percentage that is below 50%. I don't know what else to tell you to answer your question.
Socnorb11 wrote:Sunday's game was pretty prototypical NFL quarterbacking, really. Tebow only ran the ball 4 times. You might say he only threw 15 times, but that's how John Fox has always run his offense, not just for Tebow. Fox has always been a run first and play great defense coach. He's not really building THAT philosophy around Tebow. Tebow showed that he can stand in the pocket and throw the ball downfield, and do it well. Will he do that every single week? Well, there's no guarantee...... but he showed that he can do it.
At what point to the skeptics admit that maybe he "can" play quarterback in the NLF? That's not a rhetorical question, it's a real question. When does the "test" end? I agree taht he hasn't completely proven it yet, but I think he's already accomplished more as a quarterback than many of the skeptics said he would.
80ish of his 200 yards were YAC. A dump-off followed by a 45 yard run does not convince me he can play quarterback in the NFL. When does the "test" end...I dunno. Maybe when I see his completion percentage get above 60% and see him consistently and effectively throw down field. Any quarterback can have a good win/loss record for half a year with a defense playing as good as Denver's has in the last 6-7 games; especially against mediocre (at best) teams.
Where do you find YAC numbers for quarterbacks? What is typical?
Edit: It looks like 48% of Tom Brady's yards were YAC. 45% for Roethlisberger. 45% for Cutler. 43% for Tebow.
So Tebow has actually had fewer YAC than all of those guys. So you may think his yards are coming on "dump-offs", but that's not really true. In fact, it's less true for him than it is for almost any QB.
Seriously? You're right, he throws the ball downfield as well as Brady and Rothlisberger. Probably Rogers too. How many completions beyond 25 yards? Hell, how many attempts beyond 25 yards?
He has a completion percentage that is below 50%. I don't know what else to tell you to answer your question.
I was simply responding to your assumption that his YAC was poor for a quarterback. It isn't.
I'd stick to the completion percentage argument, if I were you. At least that's a legitimate gripe, although Tebow's accuracy has gotten better. He's a work in progress. Nobody here has denied that.
lukethedrifter wrote:why isn't Von Miller getting the credit that Tebow is getting?
mainly because one guy came into the league already a star and an all-time college great, while the other was mired in obscurity at Texas A&M his collegiate career
Miller's importance to the Broncos can't be overstated, though
The way in which the Broncos use Miller means that for all intents and purposes he plays two positions for them, depending on the down and distance. What is truly remarkable is that, despite being a rookie, he is arguably the best player in the league right now at either spot. This might be the most dominant season from a rookie since Randy Moss defined the word ‘uncoverable’ in his first year with a chip on his shoulder in 1998. Often we get caught up in hype over substance, but Miller might be one case of the substance far outstripping the hype, and we may be witnessing the best rookie performance in more than a decade. Forget Rookie of the Year, through 12 weeks Von Miller is the Defensive Player of the Year.
Socnorb11 wrote:Sunday's game was pretty prototypical NFL quarterbacking, really. Tebow only ran the ball 4 times. You might say he only threw 15 times, but that's how John Fox has always run his offense, not just for Tebow. Fox has always been a run first and play great defense coach. He's not really building THAT philosophy around Tebow. Tebow showed that he can stand in the pocket and throw the ball downfield, and do it well. Will he do that every single week? Well, there's no guarantee...... but he showed that he can do it.
At what point to the skeptics admit that maybe he "can" play quarterback in the NLF? That's not a rhetorical question, it's a real question. When does the "test" end? I agree taht he hasn't completely proven it yet, but I think he's already accomplished more as a quarterback than many of the skeptics said he would.
80ish of his 200 yards were YAC. A dump-off followed by a 45 yard run does not convince me he can play quarterback in the NFL. When does the "test" end...I dunno. Maybe when I see his completion percentage get above 60% and see him consistently and effectively throw down field. Any quarterback can have a good win/loss record for half a year with a defense playing as good as Denver's has in the last 6-7 games; especially against mediocre (at best) teams.
Where do you find YAC numbers for quarterbacks? What is typical?
Edit: It looks like 48% of Tom Brady's yards were YAC. 45% for Roethlisberger. 45% for Cutler. 43% for Tebow.
So Tebow has actually had fewer YAC than all of those guys. So you may think his yards are coming on "dump-offs", but that's not really true. In fact, it's less true for him than it is for almost any QB.
Seriously? You're right, he throws the ball downfield as well as Brady and Rothlisberger. Probably Rogers too. How many completions beyond 25 yards? Hell, how many attempts beyond 25 yards?
He has a completion percentage that is below 50%. I don't know what else to tell you to answer your question.
I was simply responding to your assumption that his YAC was poor for a quarterback. It isn't.
I'd stick to the completion percentage argument, if I were you. At least that's a legitimate gripe, although Tebow's accuracy has gotten better. He's a work in progress. Nobody here has denied that.
If you don't see a difference in QB competence and sustainability with YAC coming from a check-down dump-off versus hitting a receiver in stride 20 yards down the field and then taking it to the house...well, I don't know what else to say. I guess we have different criteria in evaluating NFL QBs.
stlouie_lipp wrote: If you don't see a difference in QB competence and sustainability with YAC coming from a check-down dump-off versus hitting a receiver in stride 20 yards down the field and then taking it to the house...well, I don't know what else to say. I guess we have different criteria in evaluating NFL QBs.
I do see it. But the stats show that Tebow isn't getting that many yards on dump-offs. That's what I'm trying to explain to you. In fact, he's getting fewer yards that way than most QB's.
stlouie_lipp wrote: If you don't see a difference in QB competence and sustainability with YAC coming from a check-down dump-off versus hitting a receiver in stride 20 yards down the field and then taking it to the house...well, I don't know what else to say. I guess we have different criteria in evaluating NFL QBs.
I do see it. But the stats show that Tebow isn't getting that many yards on dump-offs. That's what I'm trying to explain to you. In fact, he's getting fewer yards that way than most QB's.
You do understand that the "C " in YAC means catch, not dump-off, right? You comparisons to Brady or Rothlisberger using any stat is ridiculous. My point is YAC for those two largely come in a different way than Tebow's. Maybe you should watch some more NFL games or something. Like I said, if you can't see that difference than there is nothing else to say. You can argue semantics all you like.
This is exactly why statistical analysis in the NFL doesn't work like it does in baseball. I was simply pointing out, that in Tebow's "great" passing game (205yds), many, many of those yards came from dump-down passes. Sorry, I'm not jumping on the "Tebow's passing game is getting much better" bandwagon because of that performance.
stlouie_lipp wrote: If you don't see a difference in QB competence and sustainability with YAC coming from a check-down dump-off versus hitting a receiver in stride 20 yards down the field and then taking it to the house...well, I don't know what else to say. I guess we have different criteria in evaluating NFL QBs.
I do see it. But the stats show that Tebow isn't getting that many yards on dump-offs. That's what I'm trying to explain to you. In fact, he's getting fewer yards that way than most QB's.
You do understand that the "C " in YAC means catch, not dump-off, right? You comparisons to Brady or Rothlisberger using any stat is ridiculous. My point is YAC for those two largely come in a different way than Tebow's. Like I said, if you can't see that difference than there is nothing else to say. You can argue semantics all you like.
This is exactly why statistical analysis in the NFL doesn't work like it does in baseball. I was simply pointing out, that in Tebow's "great" passing game (205yds), many, many of those yards came from dump-down passes. Sorry, I'm not jumping on the "Tebow's passing game is getting much better" bandwagon because of that performance.
I know what the "C" means. If Tebow is dumping the ball off, and the receiver/back is accumulating yards after that, then YAC goes up. If Tebow is throwing the ball 20-30 yards downfield and hitting a receiver, then YAC is lower. My point is that Tebow's YAC is relatively low. That means he's likely hitting receivers downfield. I'm not sure which part of that you're not understanding. I'm also curious how many Broncos games you've watched. You keep saying that many of his yards last week came from dump-down passes, but that's simply not true.
