Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

[clement]

But to discount an experience by a man who was tortured, placed in a small cell, and not given much medical attention afterwards, and when given the chance to be released early, put his fellow prisoners above himself, to me is a most jaded and cynical outlook to have.

Who has that outlook?

[TimeForGuinness]

I think McCain of 2000 would have done better. His age is showing more these days.

I <3 2000 McCain. did you know I worked on his campaign? That feels like ages ago.

I hate to say he's changed a little for the worse in other ways. I'd like to think if he gets elected, we see that guy again.

Overall I thought it was a pretty typical republican speech of old. Not a bad thing. I noticed how much the republicans seem to be borrowing from the "campaign of change". Interesting. McCain has been in politics for over 20 years...and now he wants to change? ok.

Both candidates seem to want the same things. I guess Obama wants to tax us for it and McCain will pull a "W" and drive us into more debt. I dunno...I'd rather pay as I go if it's worth paying for.

I echo the other posts that I have been a McCain fan...I miss the 2000 McCain. I hope most of his actions lately is just pandering to get votes.

I really wanted the 2000 McCain to come out with the old school Hulkamania theme song in the background.

[wart57]

Whether you agree with Mccain's position on the war or not doesn't matter. The POW thing is mentioned because it shaped him and because it puts him in the light of having formed his decision while being sympathetic to the tragedies of war. This isn't some favored son who's never faced horror and atrocity. Whether you agree with him or not, you do have to acknowledge that he has an understanding of the horror of war. That's why it is constantly highlighted.

Obama growing up as a black man in America probably had a great deal to do with shaping him. He's certainly not playing that card....... not once. Why? Because he doesn't stand to gain politically from it. McCain stands to gain political leverege from being a POW.

You really cannot compare these two things to each other.

Why can't you?

What possibly could Obama have dealt with growing up to compare to what McCain suffered through during his 5 1/2 years as a Prisoner of War?

I'm not saying that he suffered as much, or in the same way. I'm just saying that growing up as a black man in a mostly white America surely shaped who he is.

Isn't he half white? My adopted sister is half black, and half white and she had a terrible time growing up. Not fully accepted by the white community and virtually shunned by the black community. I can understand that Obama had a very difficult time growing up, and that should never be discounted. But to discount an experience by a man who was tortured, placed in a small cell, and not given much medical attention afterwards, and when given the chance to be released early, put his fellow prisoners above himself, to me is a most jaded and cynical outlook to have.

I've already said that they were different experiences, but experiences that shaped each man, nontheless.

And I was saying both men had difficulties in their lives and those difficulties shaped them. Neither Mans lives should be discounted, they have both achieved much, and I think they both love their country the same amount. I wish we could get away from all the name calling and bashing and get down to the real issues, I hope the debates will do that.

[TimeForGuinness]

I'm sure you all want to hear my opinion on this (well maybe not TFG as he's prob. thinking the same thing).

The beginning was slow, slightly helter skelter due to the protestors and how the relationship between McCain and the crowd and their applause pattern. I never quite understood how they could not follow his speech patterns.

It progressively became better once he started talking about his past and finished quite nicely.

I was extremely disappointed with the protestors despite having been against the war from the start, I respecft that freedom of speech allows them that right, but disrupting McCain's freedom of speech and his civil rights is a gross misuse of power which you're claiming to be fighting for.

I don't see a significant jump in the polls, it wasn't quite good enough to do that, but this election will be decided in debates and is still likely up in the air.

++ I agree

I was embarrassed (as a Democrat) about the protesters and found it incredibly rude.

As for the speeches...both Obama and McCain left me a little flat. I hope they're saving it up for the debates.

[Freed Roger]

This thread needs a bump

[wart57]

But to discount an experience by a man who was tortured, placed in a small cell, and not given much medical attention afterwards, and when given the chance to be released early, put his fellow prisoners above himself, to me is a most jaded and cynical outlook to have.

Who has that outlook?

How many posts were made about people being tired of hearing about McCain being a POW?

[Socnorb11]

Whether you agree with Mccain's position on the war or not doesn't matter. The POW thing is mentioned because it shaped him and because it puts him in the light of having formed his decision while being sympathetic to the tragedies of war. This isn't some favored son who's never faced horror and atrocity. Whether you agree with him or not, you do have to acknowledge that he has an understanding of the horror of war. That's why it is constantly highlighted.

Obama growing up as a black man in America probably had a great deal to do with shaping him. He's certainly not playing that card....... not once. Why? Because he doesn't stand to gain politically from it. McCain stands to gain political leverege from being a POW.

You really cannot compare these two things to each other.

Why can't you?

What possibly could Obama have dealt with growing up to compare to what McCain suffered through during his 5 1/2 years as a Prisoner of War?

I'm not saying that he suffered as much, or in the same way. I'm just saying that growing up as a black man in a mostly white America surely shaped who he is.

Isn't he half white? My adopted sister is half black, and half white and she had a terrible time growing up. Not fully accepted by the white community and virtually shunned by the black community. I can understand that Obama had a very difficult time growing up, and that should never be discounted. But to discount an experience by a man who was tortured, placed in a small cell, and not given much medical attention afterwards, and when given the chance to be released early, put his fellow prisoners above himself, to me is a most jaded and cynical outlook to have.

I've already said that they were different experiences, but experiences that shaped each man, nontheless.

And I was saying both men had difficulties in their lives and those difficulties shaped them. Neither Mans lives should be discounted, they have both achieved much, and I think they both love their country the same amount. I wish we could get away from all the name calling and bashing and get down to the real issues, I hope the debates will do that.

I agree with every word of that, wart.

[TimeForGuinness]

But to discount an experience by a man who was tortured, placed in a small cell, and not given much medical attention afterwards, and when given the chance to be released early, put his fellow prisoners above himself, to me is a most jaded and cynical outlook to have.

Who has that outlook?

How many posts were made about people being tired of hearing about McCain being a POW?

How many posts were made about people being tired of hearing about Obama being a community organizer?

Not trying to pick a fight...just trying to show the other side.

[ghostrunner]

I think the Republican Convention energized both parties. That's a good thing.

What I don't get is how McCain can try to distance himself from the mess that Bush made, when he's voted with Bush 90% of the time.

I don't think that's accurate. He's obviously not trying to distance himself from Iraq. He is a Republican, so it shouldn't be surprising that he voted that way. I could be wrong, but I doubt you're going to find anyone besides maybe Ron Paul who voted with Bush under 80% of the time.

Oh, it's not the least bit surprising. But you can't have it both ways. Either you're with Bush (which McCain has seemed to be up until it became inconvenient to do so) or you're not (which it appears is his position right now).

You can't cling to your "experience" in Washington, and then proclaim that Washington is a mess that needs to be cleaned up. If you're the one that's been there experiencing it, and it's a mess, then you're at least partially responsible for the mess.

The second part is fair. But the whole Maverick thing has come about from his behavior within the context of his party. That 10% (and whatever the percentage has been over his career) represents a large amount within that group.

As far as his agreeing with Bush, you have to look at the relevant issues. Bush was a maverick within his party on immigration already, and McCain agreed with him already. McCain has always been somewhat hawkish, so the issues that came up during Bush's tenure caused them to be aligned there. Having said that, McCain was critical of Bush's handling of both Afghanistan and Iraq (in the early stages). McCain's most famous split with the party came over campaign finance reform, and Bush signed an altered version of that into law.

They're pretty similar because they're both Republicans, but it's not as if they're bosom buddies on everything philosophically.

[clement]

People have been mentioned in this thread that others shouldn't harp on Obama being black or Palin being a woman as a reason to vote for someone. Now, Obama's youth as a black man is being compared to McCain being a POW. It doesn't work with me. If you want to compare Obama's youth as a black man to McCain living on a military base, fine, but that should be where it stops.

But that's not really how the two were being compared. Someone questioned why it's important to keep bringing up his POW experience. The response was because it shaped who he is today (which I don't think is the real reason). So the response to that was, then why doesn't Obama continually bring up his experience of growing up as a black man (or half black man, if you prefer) as being the life experience that shaped who he is today. Of course I know the reason he doesn't.