Coronavirus

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Yes, answer them and support them. Money should be put aside to assist people affected. Just like veterans. We owe them that, IMO.

[cardinalkarp]

Below is a press event of individuals that were vaccinated and had adverse events, mostly severe neurological disorders, after a vaccine dose. It's hosted by Ron Johnson, everyone's fav senator, but I'm posting it here because, well, it's not about him. Turn it off at the 46 minute mark or whatever to avoid his speech after the patients. There was a lot of negative press that this was done, but after watching it's really tough to find the stories anything but believable, though I've done no research. Do they deserve a voice? Tough to argue they don't.

I'll add, anecdotally, I reported an adverse event after the first vaccine through the v-safe program about hypoglycemia and nary a word. It's an acute event and figured they were probably checking into it. Crazy to hear the story of the 13 year olds mom that the events she reported went unanswered especially since it was part of the trial.

Anyway, you want to fight vaccine hesitancy, it starts by answering people like the patients in the video, imo.

I appreciate your take through all of this AW, as you’re one of the few that has presented information on both sides of the isle and have been willing to call a spade a spade when you see it.

Because things like this are discouraged, it only leads to distrust. All I ask is for honesty from all sides, and w/ the way they are trying to silence anyone/anything that cautions the vaccine in any way, shape, or form only tells me they don’t want that information getting out.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

Below is a press event of individuals that were vaccinated and had adverse events, mostly severe neurological disorders, after a vaccine dose. It's hosted by Ron Johnson, everyone's fav senator, but I'm posting it here because, well, it's not about him. Turn it off at the 46 minute mark or whatever to avoid his speech after the patients. There was a lot of negative press that this was done, but after watching it's really tough to find the stories anything but believable, though I've done no research. Do they deserve a voice? Tough to argue they don't.

I'll add, anecdotally, I reported an adverse event after the first vaccine through the v-safe program about hypoglycemia and nary a word. It's an acute event and figured they were probably checking into it. Crazy to hear the story of the 13 year olds mom that the events she reported went unanswered especially since it was part of the trial.

Anyway, you want to fight vaccine hesitancy, it starts by answering people like the patients in the video, imo.

I appreciate your take through all of this AW, as you’re one of the few that has presented information on both sides of the isle and have been willing to call a spade a spade when you see it.

Because things like this are discouraged, it only leads to distrust. All I ask is for honesty from all sides, and w/ the way they are trying to silence anyone/anything that cautions the vaccine in any way, shape, or form only tells me they don’t want that information getting out.

Thanks. I debated rather or not to post it, as a matter of fact, when I read the headline I almost didn't watch it. Having heard somewhere on the periphery about it, decided to.

I should add, perhaps this is expected. I don't know. Perhaps, like masks at the beginning of the pandemic, the entire truth isn't being told for the greater good? Perhaps these people were already experiencing symptoms and saw this as a way to get paid for a condition they already had? Perhaps these horror stories come from Russian agents infected by the Russian government to make their stories believable for AHHHHHHHHH THE MOTHERLAND!!!! Sorry, don't know where that came from, but [expletive] Russia.

For those that didn't watch and want a tl;dw: It's 8? women detailing how within minutes to days of receiving a dose - some their first, some their second, some as part of Phase 3 trials, including a 12 or 13 year old girl - there was an acute onset of neurological disorders ranging from numbness in the face to paralysis of the legs to a plethora of other things. Some spent extended time in the hospital. All have undergone an onslaught of testing, CT scans, MRIs, etc finding little to nothing wrong. Yet months later they still suffer from debilitating symptoms to differing degrees while largely being written off and ignored by the medical professionals treating them as they don't know what to do and also by the CDC, FDA, pharma companies, etc. These are their accounts, I can't prove/verify anything. But, I see no reason to not believe them, unless they're Russian agents which...I find highly unlikely.

On it's face, it's a few stories. But, again, if you believe them, there are thousands more suffering the same fate. While Johnson probably had his own agenda behind the press event, the families I'd guess simply took advantage of the only platform they were offered. Most of the stories shared were of early recipients of the vaccine due to either being in a study or being in the medical profession (ie, not your typical MAGA demographic). The event has been labeled 'misinformation' by many, but in reality it's either true or false. If true, it's not misinformaiton. If false, it goes way beyond misinformation.

I also don't know at what rate symptoms like these pop up in the general population, though, from my understanding neurological disorders aren't typically acutely onset as these cases seem to be.

Anyway, there it is. It is tough to watch the ladies cry as they tell their stories, especially the mother of the teenager.

I'll leave with this thought. It's going to be impossible to give 300M doses of anything without things happening somewhere. Rather that is due to contamination, coincidental timing of events already in motion, or something else. It does not appear this is 'widespread' but is it under reported? IDK. Is there an explanation, such as giving the injection into a part of the body like in an artery, vein, nerve or something other than muscle/fat that explains this? Possibly. Again, IDK.

[IMADreamer]

We are headed to Branson, then Hot Springs Arkansas in like ten days. We are seriously thinking of skipping the Branson part because of the resurgence of the virus. Not sure Hot Springs will be much better.

You can get a pretty granular look at the county risk levels/spread from this website. Click on a state, then off to the top right there is a map of the counties, click on the risk level tab and it will color each county with the current risk level which corresponds pretty heavily with spread.

https://covidactnow.org/?s=2032951

Anyway, good luck. You're not at much risk given that you've been vaxxed, but I guess there is the outside chance you could catch it, remain asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic, and still spread it. I wouldn't change any plans based on that unknown, but I guess it's possible.

I'll be out of town July 24-August 2 but if you're in Hot Springs and want to meet up outside that time range, hit me up, it would be fun to grab a beer somewhere.

That would be awesome. Not 100 percent sure what days we will be there but if it works out I'd love to grab a beer with you.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

We are headed to Branson, then Hot Springs Arkansas in like ten days. We are seriously thinking of skipping the Branson part because of the resurgence of the virus. Not sure Hot Springs will be much better.

You can get a pretty granular look at the county risk levels/spread from this website. Click on a state, then off to the top right there is a map of the counties, click on the risk level tab and it will color each county with the current risk level which corresponds pretty heavily with spread.

https://covidactnow.org/?s=2032951

Anyway, good luck. You're not at much risk given that you've been vaxxed, but I guess there is the outside chance you could catch it, remain asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic, and still spread it. I wouldn't change any plans based on that unknown, but I guess it's possible.

I'll be out of town July 24-August 2 but if you're in Hot Springs and want to meet up outside that time range, hit me up, it would be fun to grab a beer somewhere.

That would be awesome. Not 100 percent sure what days we will be there but if it works out I'd love to grab a beer with you.

Awesome. Good luck with your trip and keep me posted; hopefully we can work something out.

[G. Keenan]

I appreciate your take through all of this AW, as you’re one of the few that has presented information on both sides of the isle and have been willing to call a spade a spade when you see it.

Because things like this are discouraged, it only leads to distrust. All I ask is for honesty from all sides, and w/ the way they are trying to silence anyone/anything that cautions the vaccine in any way, shape, or form only tells me they don’t want that information getting out.

I don't think anyone here has been saying the vaccines are 100% risk-free. The thing is that the vaccines are the best way to end the pandemic.

The only way to end the pandemic is to achieve herd immunity to the virus, and there are only two ways to achieve that. Mass vaccination, or nearly the entire population getting infected and developing immunity that way. In the latter scenario the pandemic drags on for years, hundreds of thousands more people die, maybe even millions, and the economy is devastated.

We can't go back in time. This is a scenario akin to a war in which the population needs to make sacrifices for the greater good. And by sacrifice I mean taking on the small degree of risk that comes from the vaccines. There are times where citizens have to stand up and do their part for the greater good, even when that means taking on a degree of personal risk. Luckily for us, the risk of the vaccine is approximately a million times less than say, storming the beaches of Normandy.

So again, the vaccines can produce adverse reactions that can be serious. No medicine, not even Tylenol, is without side effects for some people. But what is the realistic alternative? What is the upside to a press conference like this? Do people think they have no part to play in ending the pandemic? That unless the vaccine is literally 100% safe they have no social responsibility to their communities and the country as a whole to help end this? It's a form of freeloading, really. Saying I want the pandemic to end, but I'm not willing to take any amount of personal risk to help do so. I will leave that to other people but still expect to reap the benefit.

Lockdowns, masks, and social distancing will not end the pandemic. All they can do is slow it down for a little while. Without herd immunity the pandemic will literally drag on for years.

[cardinalkarp]

We can't go back in time. This is a scenario akin to a war in which the population needs to make sacrifices for the greater good. And by sacrifice I mean taking on the small degree of risk that comes from the vaccines. There are times where citizens have to stand up and do their part for the greater good, even when that means taking on a degree of personal risk. Luckily for us, the risk of the vaccine is approximately a million times less than say, storming the beaches of Normandy.

Which is fine, and I understand all of that. But to provide the vaccine makers and the US government w/ complete immunity from these peoples injuries (or any others harmed by the vaccine) is pretty despicable. If the government is making a HUGE push to get the vaccine, the LEAST they could do is pay for the medical bills if you’re harmed by it.

Like the gentleman said in the video, when it’s happening to someone else the vaccine poses minor issues and low risk, until it happens to you or someone you love.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

I appreciate your take through all of this AW, as you’re one of the few that has presented information on both sides of the isle and have been willing to call a spade a spade when you see it.

Because things like this are discouraged, it only leads to distrust. All I ask is for honesty from all sides, and w/ the way they are trying to silence anyone/anything that cautions the vaccine in any way, shape, or form only tells me they don’t want that information getting out.

I don't think anyone here has been saying the vaccines are 100% risk-free. The thing is that the vaccines are the best way to end the pandemic.

The only way to end the pandemic is to achieve herd immunity to the virus, and there are only two ways to achieve that. Mass vaccination, or nearly the entire population getting infected and developing immunity that way. In the latter scenario the pandemic drags on for years, hundreds of thousands more people die, maybe even millions, and the economy is devastated.

We can't go back in time. This is a scenario akin to a war in which the population needs to make sacrifices for the greater good. And by sacrifice I mean taking on the small degree of risk that comes from the vaccines. There are times where citizens have to stand up and do their part for the greater good, even when that means taking on a degree of personal risk. Luckily for us, the risk of the vaccine is approximately a million times less than say, storming the beaches of Normandy.

So again, the vaccines can produce adverse reactions that can be serious. No medicine, not even Tylenol, is without side effects for some people. But what is the realistic alternative? What is the upside to a press conference like this? Do people think they have no part to play in ending the pandemic? That unless the vaccine is literally 100% safe they have no social responsibility to their communities and the country as a whole to help end this? It's a form of freeloading, really. Saying I want the pandemic to end, but I'm not willing to take any amount of personal risk to help do so. I will leave that to other people but still expect to reap the benefit.

Lockdowns, masks, and social distancing will not end the pandemic. All they can do is slow it down for a little while. Without herd immunity the pandemic will literally drag on for years.

I guess the upside to a press conference like this is to bring attention to an issue that, at least according to the patients' accounts, is entirely ignored by the CDC/FDA/Pharmaceutical Companies and where their personal docs or the docs associated with the studies have no answers other than, eh, sorry. Again, I can't verify these stories, but are we at a point that I need to? Can we not just take them at face value? I'm going to make the assumption we can for the remainder of this post. And, if we do, there is a situation where thousands of people have neurological disorders after vaccination. Small percentage. Very true. Still safer, statistically, to get the vaccine than the virus. Also very true. Without more vaccines herd immunity won't be reached without more suffering. Also very true.

So, is the answer to silence and hide any information highlighting dangers posed by the vaccine? Seems like a terrible approach for a couple reasons.

The first is that it's not a war. The govt isn't going to draft so to speak unvaxxed people and force vaccinations, so it has to be voluntary. Sure, this can be debated but it's just the reality. Which brings me to this point: The best way to combat misinformation (in this case that the vaccine isn't safe) is with actual information, not by silencing people. More on this in a second.

But, also, by ignoring any issue, the issue is not addressed. Going back to your war analogy, if a certain amount of soldiers are catching dysentery and not able to fight, the answer isn't to pull them out of the war, put them in a back room and pretend they don't exist. The better course of action would be to address the situation, find the likely source of contamination, and eliminate it. In this scenario, the patients in the press conference would be the soldiers with dysentery and they feel like they're being put in the back room.

Moving on to 'being put in the back room' look at all the information floating around about the J&J clotting issue. A light was shed on it, and poof, issue solved. People debated aspirating prior to vaccinating but determined the additional pain was not worth it (presumably). Treatments were discussed. Clarifications were given. And, bam, back on track. Compare that to what these patients are describing, again, giving them the benefit of belief for the time being and there are thousands of cases like theirs. Why isn't a light shed on it where the medical community is free to discuss, report, explore options, etc etc etc. The answer I just came to as of writing this is either that they're fully aware of it and it's a risk they knew about, have seen, and know there are no solutions or it's one they don't believe exists at all. If it's the former, they need to be honest about that. And, if its the later, I'm sure patients suffering would greatly appreciate all the brain power possible focused on the issue.

Back to combating misinformation with information. Let's say this is a kink detractors can focus on to install a wedge in the scientific data proving efficacy. Let's assume the risk of experiencing a severe adverse effect is 1 in 100K. About 52% of the population isn't vaxxed at this point. Some can't be, but let's ignore that. What's a more compelling argument:
1. Based on data, we expect if the remaining 160M people are vaccinated to see 1600 people with severe adverse reactions based on data collected. Of those severe reactions, we expect X to be of this nature, Y to be of this nature, and Z to be of this nature. For X, the following treatments and/or recourse is available, for Y ditto, and for Z there is no known treatment but we continue to explore and will provide care as long as it takes until we find one. The recourse for not being vaccinated is likely to be continued spread of the virus with approximately 16,000 (or whatever number, I'm using 1 in 10K though it's likely lower) deaths. Of those, 14,400 (or whatever number, I'm using 90%) will be unvaxxed people. There is no cure for death. In addition, we'll continue to see economic shortcomings due to citizens, including vaxxed citizens, scared to resume their normal lives.
2. Nothing to see here, statistically you're safer with the vaccine than covid.

I don't know how many of the 52% unvaccinated would be persuaded by argument 1, but I know about 0% will be persuaded by argument number 2 because they've already seen that argument and have made up their minds.

[G. Keenan]

We can't go back in time. This is a scenario akin to a war in which the population needs to make sacrifices for the greater good. And by sacrifice I mean taking on the small degree of risk that comes from the vaccines. There are times where citizens have to stand up and do their part for the greater good, even when that means taking on a degree of personal risk. Luckily for us, the risk of the vaccine is approximately a million times less than say, storming the beaches of Normandy.

Which is fine, and I understand all of that. But to provide the vaccine makers and the US government w/ complete immunity from these peoples injuries (or any others harmed by the vaccine) is pretty despicable. If the government is making a HUGE push to get the vaccine, the LEAST they could do is pay for the medical bills if you’re harmed by it.

Like the gentleman said in the video, when it’s happening to someone else the vaccine poses minor issues and low risk, until it happens to you or someone you love.

Yeah, I agree with that. If it's a civic duty to get it the govt. should take care of any medical bills for people who get side effects.

[mikechamp]

We can't go back in time. This is a scenario akin to a war in which the population needs to make sacrifices for the greater good. And by sacrifice I mean taking on the small degree of risk that comes from the vaccines. There are times where citizens have to stand up and do their part for the greater good, even when that means taking on a degree of personal risk. Luckily for us, the risk of the vaccine is approximately a million times less than say, storming the beaches of Normandy.

Which is fine, and I understand all of that. But to provide the vaccine makers and the US government w/ complete immunity from these peoples injuries (or any others harmed by the vaccine) is pretty despicable. If the government is making a HUGE push to get the vaccine, the LEAST they could do is pay for the medical bills if you’re harmed by it.

Like the gentleman said in the video, when it’s happening to someone else the vaccine poses minor issues and low risk, until it happens to you or someone you love.

I wanted to address the bolded (by me) statement.

I thought I had posted about this way earlier in this thread, but the vaccine manufacturers are supposed to provide compensation for injuries. There is a fund set up to do just that. Unfortunately, and I can't remember which media outlet it was that reported on it, they make the victim reporting criteria very narrow AND the government doesn't do a very good job of enforcing the compensation responsibility by the manufacturers. All that is to say that the vaccine manufacturers don't have complete immunity, because that's not how the system is set up, but they do have substantial immunity due to a broken/unenforced compensation system.