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Shaq left in free agency, and left a legacy in Los Angeles. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar left Milwaukee for Los Angeles and left a legacy.

I'm not seeing the Bosh sign and trade anywhere, I do see that he is meeting with various teams today though.

phinstd wrote:Shaq left in free agency, and left a legacy in Los Angeles. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar left Milwaukee for Los Angeles and left a legacy.

I'm not seeing the Bosh sign and trade anywhere, I do see that he is meeting with various teams today though.

Kareem didn't leave Milwaukee to seek a championship. He won a championship in Milwaukee, and was traded later. And I think Magic is more remebered for the Lakers championships than Kareem.

Shaq won a championship with Kobe, but I don't think there's any "legacy" there. That teams belonged to Kobe, in my opinion.

Hakeem Olajuwan would be another example of a guy that didn't seek championships elsewhere, but brought one to his team.

Well, let's just say I completely disagree with your take, and I think the examples stand. Kareem won a championship, yes, but he is easily more remembered as a Laker (legacy), and that's exactly why Shaq left.

Players can and do leave in today's NBA, and I think you'll continue to see players move around. This isn't 1975, and I think people are way overselling this legacy thing.

Get your money, win championships, and let other people debate your legacy in their mind.

When did it become something for fans to debate about which championships are downplayed because player X had player Y with them? Every team that wins championships has other good players with them.

It's hilarious to me to see others try to say this team was Kobe or Magic or anything else.

Rings are rings...

phinstd wrote:When did it become something for fans to debate about which championships are downplayed because player X had player Y with them? Every team that wins championships has other good players with them.

It's hilarious to me to see others try to say this team was Kobe or Magic or anything else.

Rings are rings...

Rings are rings. But rings are not legacy.

Anyway, I already noted on the last page of this thread that I'm not saying that Lebron can't do it. I was simply saying that it normally doesn't work that way.

I don't know what is so hilarious. The Bulls were clearly Jordan's team, even though Pippen had rings, too. Pippen didn't leave a legacy...... Jordan did. Paul Gasol isn't leaving a legacy..... Kobe is. James Worthy didn't leave a legacy......... Magic did.

I think legacy has a lot to do with a person's ambition and charisma. Kareem wasn't a dynamic persona, so his legacy isn't what it could have been had he had Magic's personality or Kobe's ambition. Pippen was a dull guy. Probably has a lot to do with why he coexisted with Jordan so well.

I think LeBron has the personality and ambition to leave a strong legacy as long as he wins multiple rings. I think he has to win three, minimum to not be remembered as overhyped. That's a completely arbitrary number I pulled out of thin air, but three seems substantial enough to me.

I agree that his legacy would be more respected by a lot of fans if he does it as a career Cav, but it can still be a huge legacy if he does it somewhere else. But no mistake, he has to do it.

thrill wrote:I think legacy has a lot to do with a person's ambition and charisma. Kareem wasn't a dynamic persona, so his legacy isn't what it could have been had he had Magic's personality or Kobe's ambition. Pippen was a dull guy. Probably has a lot to do with why he coexisted with Jordan so well.

I think LeBron has the personality and ambition to leave a strong legacy as long as he wins multiple rings. I think he has to win three, minimum to not be remembered as overhyped. That's a completely arbitrary number I pulled out of thin air, but three seems substantial enough to me.

I agree that his legacy would be more respected by a lot of fans if he does it as a career Cav, but it can still be a huge legacy if he does it somewhere else. But no mistake, he has to do it.

I think that's a reasonable stance.

As an ambitious person, I would hope LeBron would know the challenges Cleveland presents.

Everyone agrees, rings are what will matter. He needs more than Boobie Gipson to get there. I just don't think doing it with another great player diminishes his accomplishments.

vinsanity wrote:

Rieges wrote:

vinsanity wrote: A trade for Chris Paul?

Wow. In all seriousness, what pieces do you think the Cavs have that would even remotely entice the Hornets to trade Paul?

I was throwing [expletive] against the wall. Something may stick. You never know what's available by trade, or what under-valued commodity might become available. Pippen was traded for a bag of flat basketballs and extra netting. The point is, you often see trades and deals you never expected, or previously under the radar players stepping up in a different system/city/coach/team.

vinsanity wrote: There'll be some decent players hitting the market in the next two years that can improve that team. I think they are adding by subtraction with Shaq. If Mo Williams or Jamison mature a little and can pick up some slack if James has an off night - they are in the finals this year. I'm sure the Bulls would hate to see it (and I don't know how he compares to Mo), but isn't Washington looking to move Hinrich?

Jamison is 34 and has played in the post-season 6 out of the last 9 seasons. I'm not sure what maturing you think he'll do.

The maturing comment was directed more at Mo than Jamison and has maybe 'stepping up in big games' is a better way to say it, but the point still remains. Had the supporting cast played an ounce that series when James was off, they might have one.

As for Cleveland getting to the finals this year, anything is possible of course but can you honestly tell me that the Cavs are better positioned than the Magic, Celtics, or the Heat and Bulls with 2 max FAs a piece?

Nope. I can't. More importantly, never did say there were in a better position for next year, or even the year after. In fact:

Vinsanity wrote:

Rieges wrote: I know that you want him to stay but do you really believe that the Cavs give him the best chance to win championships now and in the near future?

Next season? Nope. The season after? Maybe. The year after that and in to the future? I'd say they have about as good a chance as anyone else.

Though you are assuming both the Heat and Bulls sign max FA's. My whole point on this is pretty simple: whoever LeBron is on is a contender. While him+Bosh him+Johnson, Him+2 Max FA's are in a better position to win next year (most likely), that doesn't rule Cleveland out as a place to win the most titles over the course of his career/contract.

You're right that anything is possible. It's also possible that I'm going to have a torrid affair with Natalie Portman.

phinstd wrote: I just don't think doing it with another great player diminishes his accomplishments.

I don't think that's what anyones saying.

I took it to mean his 'legend' will be greater if he does it in Cleveland vs. moving to Miami/NY/NJ to get his rings.

What team do you think of when it comes to Shaq? Or Garnett? The Magic? The Lakers? The Wolves? Jordan and the bulls are synonymous, so are Magic and the Lakers, Kobe and the Lakers, Bird and the celtics, Duncan and the Spurs.

If LeBron jumps ship, he won't be synonymous with Cleveland, his 'legend' takes a hit (is the argument). I think there's something to it.

Rieges wrote:You're right that anything is possible. It's also possible that I'm going to have a torrid affair with Natalie Portman.

Right. But Chris Paul is a FA in two years, Byron Scott is now the Cav's head coach. Would you be surprised if he ended up in Cleveland? It's not like this is a 45 win team with LeBron. The won't flounder in mediocrity for two years until they can land another big player. And maybe Paul would be traded next summer to the Cavs if he told NO he was going to walk.

You've never met Natalie Portman (to my knowledge). LeBron has been to the finals without another max contract player on his team - is it that hard to fathom they'd compete year in and year out until a good mix of players was found to play with him?

And Natalie Portman? Really? Maybe she'd be a good hot or not contestant?