Our financial system is crumbling this week.

[planet planet]

There was a time in our country's history where people would get out and do something about things that were happenning. Maybe that's misplaced energy to some, so I guess people can instead continue to channel their energy to their Wiis, their ipods, their netflix, and espn. Of course if people are too busy with their toys to be bothered with the corruption that we saw in November 2000, then I guess I shoudln't be surprised that they won't get off siitting on their hands for this thing either. It's funny... criminal activity takes place and this whole anti-government country of ours just turns to the government and has some kind of faith (or is it numb apathy?) that they will actually take care of the problem.

ghost: if you think that accusations that Obama is an elitist is based on that "religion and guns" quote then I think you're being awfully forgiving to his accusers. That quote didn't help, but the elitism label they've been trying to stick on him has a lot more to do with his party affiliation and his intellect. Remember, they put the label on John Kerry 4 years ago, for what was it again? Windsurfing?

now that's what i'm talking about ! you go clement !

you're the first american i've heard/read who genuinely seems outraged, and seems to understand the extent to which these people cheated, misled and stole from you.

Um, the only problem with that is he lives in Singapore.

[arnie.k]

There was a time in our country's history where people would get out and do something about things that were happenning. Maybe that's misplaced energy to some, so I guess people can instead continue to channel their energy to their Wiis, their ipods, their netflix, and espn. Of course if people are too busy with their toys to be bothered with the corruption that we saw in November 2000, then I guess I shoudln't be surprised that they won't get off siitting on their hands for this thing either. It's funny... criminal activity takes place and this whole anti-government country of ours just turns to the government and has some kind of faith (or is it numb apathy?) that they will actually take care of the problem.

ghost: if you think that accusations that Obama is an elitist is based on that "religion and guns" quote then I think you're being awfully forgiving to his accusers. That quote didn't help, but the elitism label they've been trying to stick on him has a lot more to do with his party affiliation and his intellect. Remember, they put the label on John Kerry 4 years ago, for what was it again? Windsurfing?

now that's what i'm talking about ! you go clement !

you're the first american i've heard/read who genuinely seems outraged, and seems to understand the extent to which these people cheated, misled and stole from you.

Um, the only problem with that is he lives in Singapore.

are they putting something in your waters?

seriously...

[GatewaySnayke]

also, i'm very surprised at the low amounts of rage you guys are exhibiting on this whole thing.

We only get outraged about pointless stuff like whether some politician made a comment that can be interpreted as an insult to our lifestyle.

LOL

/thread

ghost: if you think that accusations that Obama is an elitist is based on that "religion and guns" quote then I think you're being awfully forgiving to his accusers. That quote didn't help, but the elitism label they've been trying to stick on him has a lot more to do with his party affiliation and his intellect. Remember, they put the label on John Kerry 4 years ago, for what was it again? Windsurfing?

I forget it was said, then it gets brought up at least once every three weeks on the board. It's one of those Sean Hannity Fits of Outrage where it gets repeated in discussions even though it has no place.

[greenback44]

you're the first american i've heard/read who genuinely seems outraged, and seems to understand the extent to which these people cheated, misled and stole from you.

I don't see a lot of lying, cheating or stealing here. I have no illusions about Wall Street; I'm concerned corporate America has dropped its mission of making money by serving the public good for the new mission of exploitation of the capital markets, thanks in large part to Wall Street. And now it should be clear that some mechanism is needed to prevent bad decisions from reaching the scale they reached, that Ronald Reagan's views of regulation are as outdated as George Wallace's views on race. But this crisis is a product of the public desire for wider home ownership (and anyone speaking out against the practice five years ago likely would've been branded an elitist). Some smart individuals made some really bad decisions in response to that. Converting this from an issue of competence, or perhaps the limits of competence, to an issue of morality won't fix the problem.

[UK]

are they putting something in your waters?

seriously...

People should be upset about how gov't has failed us, we've given more to them than they've given to us.

How to respond to that is the ultimate question.

Unless you're leaving the country or starting a revolution to overthrow the gov't, the best way to change the path is thru voting and your voice. In this thread we have people speaking their minds about how the gov't has failed us and that they are likely going to vote to condemn their actions.

(or what planet said)

[arnie.k]

you're the first american i've heard/read who genuinely seems outraged, and seems to understand the extent to which these people cheated, misled and stole from you.

I don't see a lot of lying, cheating or stealing here. I have no illusions about Wall Street; I'm concerned corporate America has dropped its mission of making money by serving the public good for the new mission of exploitation of the capital markets, thanks in large part to Wall Street. And now it should be clear that some mechanism is needed to prevent bad decisions from reaching the scale they reached, that Ronald Reagan's views of regulation are as outdated as George Wallace's views on race. But this crisis is a product of the public desire for wider home ownership (and anyone speaking out against the practice five years ago likely would've been branded an elitist). Some smart individuals made some really bad decisions in response to that. Converting this from an issue of competence, or perhaps the limits of competence, to an issue of morality won't fix the problem.

i see your point. i also agree that it probably wasn't malice.

i still think you're equating "succumbing to greed" with "making bad decisions". and i do think the former should be punishable. as AD mentioned earlier in this thread, the levels of greed that we've been seeing in these financial markets would be considered nothing short of sociopathy in any other circle.

why should the people who ran this to the ground not be liable to negligence suits? or even to criminal proceedings based on "mishandling of public trust"? (i don't know the exact legal term, but in the israeli judiciary system, public officials & people in positions of power can be prosecuted for mishandling a trust that was granted them while in office).

also, i agree the main point should not be rage and anger, but finding a way to fix the situation. the key words should be regulation & limitation. no company should be allowed to reach the point where its crash could ruin the economy... if that's allowed to continue, you're giving the management of that company a "carte blanche" to raid its vaults and let the public deal with the consequences.

[Freed Roger]

arnie.k wrote:
you're the first american i've heard/read who genuinely seems outraged, and seems to understand the extent to which these people cheated, misled and stole from you.

I'm mad so that makes two.

For years now, the only thing we've been taught from leaders in Washington, is the perils of big government and the free-er the markets the better. de-regulate. Privatize. The reality hasn't truly been free markets, but crony capitalism. I'm not saying the other extreme works either (socialize everything), but a balance is what works best. The ruling GOP have been perpetrators of the fraud. They definitely should lose control of the White House please. and play a secondary govt role, provide a balance against socialism going too far.

Americans have a child-like ignorance to economic matters. As long as we can get our stuff, we're fine. We assume there are wizards that magically make it all work. IMO this is very sad.

Most people think that understanding the economy involves knowing terms like collaterized debt obligation, short selling, or treasuries... We shouldn't allow so much detail to confuse US. The national economy is hardly different than the one in our own homes...but perhaps this explains some of our ignorance - a lot of US don't even understand our own checkbooks, but we do know how to charge and buy expensive things.

Ironically, the national economic problem mirrors what's going on in so many homes. (or vice versa).
What the govt is doing again is using a big credit card check (from the bank of China) to pay for expensive things (like Iraq War and bank bailouts.) As long as we have those blank credit card checks, we'll be fine.

[ghostrunner]

There was a time in our country's history where people would get out and do something about things that were happenning. Maybe that's misplaced energy to some, so I guess people can instead continue to channel their energy to their Wiis, their ipods, their netflix, and espn. Of course if people are too busy with their toys to be bothered with the corruption that we saw in November 2000, then I guess I shoudln't be surprised that they won't get off siitting on their hands for this thing either. It's funny... criminal activity takes place and this whole anti-government country of ours just turns to the government and has some kind of faith (or is it numb apathy?) that they will actually take care of the problem.

ghost: if you think that accusations that Obama is an elitist is based on that "religion and guns" quote then I think you're being awfully forgiving to his accusers. That quote didn't help, but the elitism label they've been trying to stick on him has a lot more to do with his party affiliation and his intellect. Remember, they put the label on John Kerry 4 years ago, for what was it again? Windsurfing?

What do Wiis or iPods have to do with anything? Would it be better if we actually went to concerts or played board games? Why does the existence of these things bother anyone? I'm sure for some, they're a status symbol or a fad, but for most people they're a tool that allows them to do the things that make life worth living. Why don't we throw computers and message boards in with that?

I think people expect this of government and this is why they don't like it. My personal opinion is that government works pretty well in so far as it doesn't work. We have a number of counterbalances and checks on power. We have three branches or government, a House and Senate within the legislature, and we have two major parties. People within those branches are constantly coming up for re-election and being challenged in most cases. No one party is able to get it's agenda across, and they're always trying to stop the other. On balance, I'm pretty satisfied with that arrangement. It allows us to live our life relatively free from intrusion and pursue happiness - which is often beneficial to the rest of us. I don't think the purpose of life is to figure out how to govern ourselves perfectly.

Given the huge swath of people who are complicit in this particular problem - not only government, but banks and creditors, as well as buyers who tried to overextend their wallets at the expense of their families' security - I find it hard to pinpoint my outrage on one person or group of people. Nor do I think it would be fair or productive to do so.

On Obama, all I'm saying is that he gave some credibility to the accusation. I think what he said was elitist in the true, negative sense. It's also part of what makes me uncomfortable about him. It's not the first time he's said something that put him and his supporters apart from other kinds of people, whoever they may be.

[ghostrunner]

you're the first american i've heard/read who genuinely seems outraged, and seems to understand the extent to which these people cheated, misled and stole from you.

I don't see a lot of lying, cheating or stealing here. I have no illusions about Wall Street; I'm concerned corporate America has dropped its mission of making money by serving the public good for the new mission of exploitation of the capital markets, thanks in large part to Wall Street. And now it should be clear that some mechanism is needed to prevent bad decisions from reaching the scale they reached, that Ronald Reagan's views of regulation are as outdated as George Wallace's views on race. But this crisis is a product of the public desire for wider home ownership (and anyone speaking out against the practice five years ago likely would've been branded an elitist). Some smart individuals made some really bad decisions in response to that. Converting this from an issue of competence, or perhaps the limits of competence, to an issue of morality won't fix the problem.

This.

[GatewaySnayke]

On Obama, all I'm saying is that he gave some credibility to the accusation. I think what he said was elitist in the true, negative sense. It's also part of what makes me uncomfortable about him. It's not the first time he's said something that put him and his supporters apart from other kinds of people, whoever they may be.

And yet it has nothing to do with our financial system crumbling and I believe this is at least the 43rd or 44th time you've mentioned it.