Outer Space Thread

[jim]

If time is linked to space in our universe, what is this independent clock running that tracks the evolution of the multiverse "before" the big bang. Not that I understand it, but I think something is fundamentally missing with stories that refer to things "before" the creation of the universe that are not extremely careful about defining what exactly that means. By the same token, what exactly is the "space" in which this multiverse expands and produces universes as bubbles supposed to be?

I could be completely off base - but isn't this really why they introduce up to 10 dimensions of space? Time of course in our universe is just another dimension of space, if we can observe 4 dimensions in our universe why couldn't the same concept exist it other dimensions? In other words we are a 4 dimensional universe wrapped up in other dimensions, perhaps one or more that can only move forward in space (i.e. time)?

I agree that talking about "before" when you are talking about the time dimension of space we are talking about, makes no sense.

This could be like peeling an onion, a universe lives in a plane that has many universes, which itself is rolled up into a plane that contains many planes etc...

It's unsolvable, no question about it. Ok, so there might be a way someday to "see" evidence of other universes or structures that existed before our universe, but what going further back than that. Much like a 2D creature living in a 2D space world could sense a third dimension by seeing the projection of a 3D object on it's 2D space, how do you know it stops with that projection? What does that thing in the other dimension seeing - is it seeing shadows in it's universe that suggest something else?

Unsolvable.

But neat and mind blowing to think about.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

I have the same problem with either explanation. For a singular universe, the question becomes, well....when did it start and what is outside? For a multiverse, the question remains, well....when did it start and what is outside. I guess the multiverse explanation just says that it has always been and there was no beginning, it just always was, but that still leaves the question of what is outside the multiverse unless the answer is it is infinitely large with no beginning, ergo infinitely old, and has no boundaries....in which case, it blows my mind as to wtf we're even talking about.

This is less mind blowing to me for some reason than a one universe popping into existence through some quantum fluctuation. If the fabric has just always been here, then no beginning, no boundaries, etc... We have this concept in mathematics that comes up all of the time, and while our brain can't get around the infinite way we certainly understand the mechanics of it on an abstract level.

What I think you have to agree on is *something* has *always* been. Whether it's some potential universe coiled up into a single point, whether it's some fabric with strings and branes that create universes all of the time, whether it's a supreme being that decided to create it - whatever you come up it seems to me philosophically that you have to have had something where there was no start.

It's one of the most basic questions the human mind tries to answer - where did we come from? And it drives you mad, doesn't it?

Yes, it's quite scary, really. I have this dream that, because I couldn't understand it during my life, I'm forced to walk through the entirety of 'space' until I 1. understand it and 2. appreciate it. This of course would take beyond any amount of time the human mind can comprehend. What's 28 billion light years traveled at 3 mph again? And, what shape is the universe? If it's round, can I walk through the middle of it, or, like earth, do I have to stay on the circumference....because that's a lot longer.

Then, I try to apply that same mind bending amount of space/time and say....Earth:Universe::Universe:Multiverse but even smaller.....just crazy.

Re: the beginning. Yeah, whatever it is you have to think time always was; that you can go back 10^infinity millennia and time was there. But, the ability to think that mass, no matter the density' always *was* just blows my mind. I can't fathom how a physical thing (eg, atoms) didn't have a beginning.

So, then, what really gets me going is thinking about it like this. If the multiverse is correct, if there really are infinite universes like ours over time, I wonder what they were like. Like, in order for evolution to occur, does a set atmosphere have to be present? Even so, there are infinite possibilities for these conditions to occur, which means at some point, other life forms have existed....somewhere/sometime. How did they compare to ours and if they were ever very advanced, will we ever see any signs of them? And, if so, how much time will have elapsed in both their worlds and ours since any messages were sent?

The lack of simple answers and my pea brain just can't comprehend everything.

[jim]

The human brain simply can't deal with the immensity of it all. The best I can do is put myself at a little bit of peace by fooling myself into thinking I might have an inkling of what it is I live in, and how it got here.

[go birds]

I'd like to think that we exist in a way that is portrayed in one of the Men in Black movies....where the giant alien is basically playing marbles with our universe and a bunch of other universes and we as human are tinier than quarks

[thrill]

What I think you have to agree on is *something* has *always* been. Whether it's some potential universe coiled up into a single point, whether it's some fabric with strings and branes that create universes all of the time, whether it's a supreme being that decided to create it - whatever you come up it seems to me philosophically that you have to have had something where there was no start.

Exactly. That's what I meant by:

one universe and the multiverse seem equally implausible to me. Yet here we are.

I have an equal lack of understanding of the origins of the matter that makes up the universe regardless of the form it actually takes, but it's fun to think about.

[pioneer98]

There is a major announcement that just came out this morning. A group of scientists from Harvard and the Smithsonian claim they have evidence of gravity waves that would have accompanied the Big Bang. Way over my head, but it says gravity waves are predicted by Einstein's Theory of Relativity but we never observed evidence of them until now:

http://www.thewire.com/technology/2014/ ... on/359234/

This is a pretty big deal actually, from a cosmological point of view. Not surprising necessarily, but as you pointed out something predicted by relativity and consistent with the big bang/inflationary model of the universe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/scien ... ml?hp&_r=3

This is just mind blowing. Multiverse.... wow. The universe is such a strange and wonderful place.

If anyone is interested in learning about the multiverse theory, this is an awesome listen: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91859-the ... universes/

I listened to most of this the other night when I couldn't sleep. I had read that guy's book several years ago "The Elegant Universe". He explored one idea that was something like: if our universe is truly infinite, then if you travel far enough you will find a doppelganger universe or galaxy that is exactly like ours in every way, down to our solar system, the Earth and its inhabitants. He said that your doppelganger would act exactly like you, have the same exact thoughts and take all the same actions as you. So the funny thing about this scenario in my mind, is that if you ever traveled to that doppelganger planet, you'd find that your doppelganger was not there. He had left a while ago in search of his doppelganger. It's like something out of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - "You can never meet your doppelganger because your doppelgangers are always traveling at the same exact speed in the same exact direction."

When you got to this doppelganger planet, would you even have a way to tell whether you were at a doppelganger planet, or whether you had arrived back at your own planet? It would be like Inception, as in, "How do I know if I just traveled a trillion light years, or if it was all just a dream?"

[thrill]

There is a major announcement that just came out this morning. A group of scientists from Harvard and the Smithsonian claim they have evidence of gravity waves that would have accompanied the Big Bang. Way over my head, but it says gravity waves are predicted by Einstein's Theory of Relativity but we never observed evidence of them until now:

http://www.thewire.com/technology/2014/ ... on/359234/

This is a pretty big deal actually, from a cosmological point of view. Not surprising necessarily, but as you pointed out something predicted by relativity and consistent with the big bang/inflationary model of the universe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/scien ... ml?hp&_r=3

This is just mind blowing. Multiverse.... wow. The universe is such a strange and wonderful place.

If anyone is interested in learning about the multiverse theory, this is an awesome listen: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91859-the ... universes/

I listened to most of this the other night when I couldn't sleep. I had read that guy's book several years ago "The Elegant Universe". He explored one idea that was something like: if our universe is truly infinite, then if you travel far enough you will find a doppelganger universe or galaxy that is exactly like ours in every way, down to our solar system, the Earth and its inhabitants. He said that your doppelganger would act exactly like you, have the same exact thoughts and take all the same actions as you. So the funny thing about this scenario in my mind, is that if you ever traveled to that doppelganger planet, you'd find that your doppelganger was not there. He had left a while ago in search of his doppelganger. It's like something out of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - "You can never meet your doppelganger because your doppelgangers are always traveling at the same exact speed in the same exact direction."

When you got to this doppelganger planet, would you even have a way to tell whether you were at a doppelganger planet, or whether you had arrived back at your own planet? It would be like Inception, as in, "How do I know if I just traveled a trillion light years, or if it was all just a dream?"

There are infinite possibilities, so there would be a universe where everything is exactly the same except the Cubs have won 11 World Series titles and the Cardinals none since 1908. I would call that poop world. That's my hot rivalry take for today.

[AdmiralKird]

Why'd we have to get the one universe where aliens run around giving humans clandestine anal probes?

Actually I don't think the infinite multiverse exist, because you're telling me that everything conceivable is possible where a) the cubs can still win the world series, b) a universe where aliens come to earth just to themselves get anally probed, c) that both of the aformentioned things can happen in the same universe, where the cubs win the world series and aliens immediately land at Wrigley field and both the cubs and the aliens start giving each other mutual anal probes while Barack Obama rides around the warning track on a unicycle playing "Row Row Row your Boat" on a recorder.

This just sounds so incredibly stupid that it would not possibly exist, yet according to the infinite multiverse it should and does.






No.

[jim]

There is a major announcement that just came out this morning. A group of scientists from Harvard and the Smithsonian claim they have evidence of gravity waves that would have accompanied the Big Bang. Way over my head, but it says gravity waves are predicted by Einstein's Theory of Relativity but we never observed evidence of them until now:

http://www.thewire.com/technology/2014/ ... on/359234/

This is a pretty big deal actually, from a cosmological point of view. Not surprising necessarily, but as you pointed out something predicted by relativity and consistent with the big bang/inflationary model of the universe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/scien ... ml?hp&_r=3

This is just mind blowing. Multiverse.... wow. The universe is such a strange and wonderful place.

If anyone is interested in learning about the multiverse theory, this is an awesome listen: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91859-the ... universes/

I listened to most of this the other night when I couldn't sleep. I had read that guy's book several years ago "The Elegant Universe". He explored one idea that was something like: if our universe is truly infinite, then if you travel far enough you will find a doppelganger universe or galaxy that is exactly like ours in every way, down to our solar system, the Earth and its inhabitants. He said that your doppelganger would act exactly like you, have the same exact thoughts and take all the same actions as you. So the funny thing about this scenario in my mind, is that if you ever traveled to that doppelganger planet, you'd find that your doppelganger was not there. He had left a while ago in search of his doppelganger. It's like something out of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - "You can never meet your doppelganger because your doppelgangers are always traveling at the same exact speed in the same exact direction."

When you got to this doppelganger planet, would you even have a way to tell whether you were at a doppelganger planet, or whether you had arrived back at your own planet? It would be like Inception, as in, "How do I know if I just traveled a trillion light years, or if it was all just a dream?"

There are infinite possibilities, so there would be a universe where everything is exactly the same except the Cubs have won 11 World Series titles and the Cardinals none since 1908. I would call that poop world. That's my hot rivalry take for today.

No, there would be infinite possibilities, but remember it would only be infinite possibilities within the realm of physical possbilities which would be governed by quantum mechanics. In other words, the Cubs would in no case have won 11 World Series in any universe. That simply is not within the realm of the physics that would govern these universes.

[pioneer98]

There is a major announcement that just came out this morning. A group of scientists from Harvard and the Smithsonian claim they have evidence of gravity waves that would have accompanied the Big Bang. Way over my head, but it says gravity waves are predicted by Einstein's Theory of Relativity but we never observed evidence of them until now:

http://www.thewire.com/technology/2014/ ... on/359234/

This is a pretty big deal actually, from a cosmological point of view. Not surprising necessarily, but as you pointed out something predicted by relativity and consistent with the big bang/inflationary model of the universe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/scien ... ml?hp&_r=3

This is just mind blowing. Multiverse.... wow. The universe is such a strange and wonderful place.

If anyone is interested in learning about the multiverse theory, this is an awesome listen: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91859-the ... universes/

I listened to most of this the other night when I couldn't sleep. I had read that guy's book several years ago "The Elegant Universe". He explored one idea that was something like: if our universe is truly infinite, then if you travel far enough you will find a doppelganger universe or galaxy that is exactly like ours in every way, down to our solar system, the Earth and its inhabitants. He said that your doppelganger would act exactly like you, have the same exact thoughts and take all the same actions as you. So the funny thing about this scenario in my mind, is that if you ever traveled to that doppelganger planet, you'd find that your doppelganger was not there. He had left a while ago in search of his doppelganger. It's like something out of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - "You can never meet your doppelganger because your doppelgangers are always traveling at the same exact speed in the same exact direction."

When you got to this doppelganger planet, would you even have a way to tell whether you were at a doppelganger planet, or whether you had arrived back at your own planet? It would be like Inception, as in, "How do I know if I just traveled a trillion light years, or if it was all just a dream?"

There are infinite possibilities, so there would be a universe where everything is exactly the same except the Cubs have won 11 World Series titles and the Cardinals none since 1908. I would call that poop world. That's my hot rivalry take for today.

I wonder if Theo ever considered trying to find this bizarro planet? Maybe that's why he bought that supercomputer.

A corollary to "You can never meet any of your doppelgangers because they are always traveling with the same speed in the same direction" would be: "If you meet someone who appears to be your doppelganger, you know they aren't because they chose to travel in a different direction than you at least once. But they're probably pretty fun to hang out with, anyway."