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Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 14 17, 8:54 am
by Socnorb11
Famous Mortimer wrote:pioneer98 wrote:
Winning with the Red Sox or Cubs (or Giants or Cardinals for that matter) is a lot less difficult than winning with, say, the Royals.
Which is why both the Red Sox and the Cubs won so many World Series before Theo took over.
Actual results don't really change Pioneer's point, though. He's right. The Red Sox and Cubs were train wreck organizations previously. They didn't need a magician to turn it around......... they just needed someone competent. Theo is competent.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 14 17, 8:59 am
by AWvsCBsteeeerike3
I don't know what we're arguing anymore, but Theo is one of the top 5 GMs in the game imo. Definitely better than competent, again, imo.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 14 17, 9:01 am
by Socnorb11
Wally-Higgins wrote:Socnorb11 wrote:Honestly, the 2016 Cubs aren't as "home grown" as people probably think.
Theo didn't draft Rizzo, Zobrist, Addison Russell, Baez, Soler, Fowler, Heyward, Montero............. or any member of the starting rotation.
He gets credit for drafting Bryant and Contreras, and he gets credit for making some really good trades, but it's not necessarily a "home grown" team, top to bottom, by any stretch.
Rizzo was drafted by Theo. Theo just happened to be in Boston when he drafted him. Soler was an IFA signed by Theo.
That's right. I had forgotten that Theo traded Rizzo to the Padres. Certainly not the best deal he's made.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 14 17, 11:20 am
by Swirls
Socnorb11 wrote:Wally-Higgins wrote:Socnorb11 wrote:Honestly, the 2016 Cubs aren't as "home grown" as people probably think.
Theo didn't draft Rizzo, Zobrist, Addison Russell, Baez, Soler, Fowler, Heyward, Montero............. or any member of the starting rotation.
He gets credit for drafting Bryant and Contreras, and he gets credit for making some really good trades, but it's not necessarily a "home grown" team, top to bottom, by any stretch.
Rizzo was drafted by Theo. Theo just happened to be in Boston when he drafted him. Soler was an IFA signed by Theo.
That's right. I had forgotten that Theo traded Rizzo to the Padres. Certainly not the best deal he's made.
Actually I think that was Cherington, who pretty much destroyed a large chunk of what Theo had created. Theo had already gone to Chicago, and Hoyer was in San Diego - so he was quite happy to get Rizzo back by fleecing Cherington.
Then Hoyer went to Chicago, and Theo/Jed fleeced the new guy in San Diego to get Rizzo again.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 14 17, 1:02 pm
by Socnorb11
Swirls wrote:Socnorb11 wrote:Wally-Higgins wrote:Socnorb11 wrote:Honestly, the 2016 Cubs aren't as "home grown" as people probably think.
Theo didn't draft Rizzo, Zobrist, Addison Russell, Baez, Soler, Fowler, Heyward, Montero............. or any member of the starting rotation.
He gets credit for drafting Bryant and Contreras, and he gets credit for making some really good trades, but it's not necessarily a "home grown" team, top to bottom, by any stretch.
Rizzo was drafted by Theo. Theo just happened to be in Boston when he drafted him. Soler was an IFA signed by Theo.
That's right. I had forgotten that Theo traded Rizzo to the Padres. Certainly not the best deal he's made.
Actually I think that was Cherington, who pretty much destroyed a large chunk of what Theo had created. Theo had already gone to Chicago, and Hoyer was in San Diego - so he was quite happy to get Rizzo back by fleecing Cherington.
Then Hoyer went to Chicago, and Theo/Jed fleeced the new guy in San Diego to get Rizzo again.
Rizzo was traded to San Diego in Dec. 2010. Epstein didn't leave the Red Sox until Oct. 2011, so I'm pretty sure it happened on his watch.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 14 17, 1:04 pm
by Swirls
Socnorb11 wrote:Swirls wrote:Socnorb11 wrote:Wally-Higgins wrote:Socnorb11 wrote:Honestly, the 2016 Cubs aren't as "home grown" as people probably think.
Theo didn't draft Rizzo, Zobrist, Addison Russell, Baez, Soler, Fowler, Heyward, Montero............. or any member of the starting rotation.
He gets credit for drafting Bryant and Contreras, and he gets credit for making some really good trades, but it's not necessarily a "home grown" team, top to bottom, by any stretch.
Rizzo was drafted by Theo. Theo just happened to be in Boston when he drafted him. Soler was an IFA signed by Theo.
That's right. I had forgotten that Theo traded Rizzo to the Padres. Certainly not the best deal he's made.
Actually I think that was Cherington, who pretty much destroyed a large chunk of what Theo had created. Theo had already gone to Chicago, and Hoyer was in San Diego - so he was quite happy to get Rizzo back by fleecing Cherington.
Then Hoyer went to Chicago, and Theo/Jed fleeced the new guy in San Diego to get Rizzo again.
Rizzo was traded to San Diego in Dec. 2010. Epstein didn't leave the Red Sox until Oct. 2011, so I'm pretty sure it happened on his watch.
Oh okay, I thought it happened in late 2011 or early 2012, right after Theo left and Ben took over.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 14 17, 1:13 pm
by davhern
Socnorb11 wrote:Famous Mortimer wrote:pioneer98 wrote:
Winning with the Red Sox or Cubs (or Giants or Cardinals for that matter) is a lot less difficult than winning with, say, the Royals.
Which is why both the Red Sox and the Cubs won so many World Series before Theo took over.
Actual results don't really change Pioneer's point, though. He's right. The Red Sox and Cubs were train wreck organizations previously. They didn't need a magician to turn it around......... they just needed someone competent.
Theo is competent.
Assuming you mean he is *only* competent and not better than that, this is absolutely insane.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 14 17, 1:25 pm
by Socnorb11
davhern wrote:Socnorb11 wrote:Famous Mortimer wrote:pioneer98 wrote:
Winning with the Red Sox or Cubs (or Giants or Cardinals for that matter) is a lot less difficult than winning with, say, the Royals.
Which is why both the Red Sox and the Cubs won so many World Series before Theo took over.
Actual results don't really change Pioneer's point, though. He's right. The Red Sox and Cubs were train wreck organizations previously. They didn't need a magician to turn it around......... they just needed someone competent.
Theo is competent.
Assuming you mean he is *only* competent and not better than that, this is absolutely insane.
I'm simply saying that he's more competent than his predecessors in Boston and Chicago. You can take that however you want to.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 14 17, 6:12 pm
by Famous Mortimer
"Actual results don't change the point"
It's not just me that thinks this is insane, right?
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 14 17, 6:57 pm
by Socnorb11
Famous Mortimer wrote:"Actual results don't change the point"
It's not just me that thinks this is insane, right?
In this context, it makes perfect sense.
Having more resources makes it easier to win. If you don't make good use of those resources, that's your own fault.