Best Damned Health Care Anywhere!

[cards2468]

The situations are a little different. Your house catches on fire and the rest of us are at risk of that fire spreading. You catch on fire and I'm sure the fire department would be more than happy to hose you down to prevent you from spreading a fire and risking collateral damage.

There are houses on their own plots were fire would have no risk of spreading, that would still be saved by a FD.

If a guy shoots me in the leg to steal my wallet, it's ok for the government to fund a program to find the guy and return my wallet but it's not ok for them to fund a program to pay for my treatment of the wound and rehab?

I guess I'm just not sure why fire, police and education are considered necessary to a productive society/country, but if you get sick you get to pay through the nose for it.

Fire dept. aren't a national program, most police presence isn't federal either. However, some towns will charge this seperately to their citizens, and there's a story of a guy who wasn't paying for fire. His house caught on fire and the fire dept showed up just to make sure it didn't spread to his neighbor's place.


The way I see it, a community is a group of people working together to exist. Contribution to society by providing goods or services is measured in currency. A portion of currency is taken to put into a community pot where the community as a whole decides what they want to fund for the community. If that community wants protection, they pay cops, if they want fire protection, they pay firemen, if they want education, they pay teachers. If they don't want health care, then that's their choice.

I don't see health care as a natural right, but the way the system is set up now, as heyzeus pointed out, we're just hurting all of ourselves instead of efficiently managing the burden of health care.

[slide_into_first]

You also have at least a million homeless people with communicable diseases like TB, which is becoming incurable in other countries, creeping on your streets. That's kind of like spreading a fire.

[IMADreamer]

The problem is people are lazy. If they weren't they'd all be Mitt Romney and wouldn't have to worry about health care.


In all seriousness and not to make it too political but this is where the Republicans are masters at what they do. They have managed to get a huge chunk of the population to demonize and vote against what is best for them. It's amazing and horribly sad. All in the name of outrageous profits. I honestly can't believe there aren't more shootings at clinics, hospitals, and nursing homes over the extreme amount of stress and financial distress our horribly corrupt, and extremely [expletive] health care system.

[vinsanity]

Fire dept. aren't a national program, most police presence isn't federal either.

Military. FBI. FCC. FDA. (Granted more than a few fiscal conservatives would like to axe the last two). What is fundamentally different from the United States implementing something like health care of police protection and your state doing it?

The way I see it, a community is a group of people working together to exist. A portion of currency is taken to put into a community pot where the community as a whole decides what they want to fund for the community.

Are we not a community as a country though? If MO or whatever state you live in decided they were going to legalize gambling and pot and use the tax revenue to do a hybrid/canada-type health care system where 80% of all health care costs were covered by the state of MO, would you support that? If so, why would that be different than if the Federal Government made the same decision? If it's about a community decision, Two thirds of Americans would prefer universal health care to our current system.

I don't see health care as a natural right

Fiscal concerns aside, what do you see as natural rights of a human and of an American? Is police and fire protection a natural right and why? Should people have to choose between life and death because of financial ability? Again, honest questions. Not attacking, not asking you to justify, just trying to understand.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

We also pay for the roads we drive on to get to the hospital. But there is profit to be made in medicine; that is why it isn't taken care of by the Feds.

Anyone remember when it was against the law to advertise prescription medication? I do. Because for a time, the lawmakers in this country did not want to incentivize the profit motive for prescription meds. That changed.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

The problem is people are lazy. If they weren't they'd all be Mitt Romney and wouldn't have to worry about health care.


In all seriousness and not to make it too political but this is where the Republicans are masters at what they do. They have managed to get a huge chunk of the population to demonize and vote against what is best for them. It's amazing and horribly sad. All in the name of outrageous profits. I honestly can't believe there aren't more shootings at clinics, hospitals, and nursing homes over the extreme amount of stress and financial distress our horribly corrupt, and extremely [expletive] health care system.

Republicans had neither control of the House, Senate or White House when the health care reform was passed. While what you're saying may be true, and I don't really care because it would take too much time to go through it all, it's not their fault that the single payer option was killed, it's the health care companies paying politicians... Mike Ross is one...turns out republicans aren't the only politicians that health care companies own.

[vinsanity]

it's not their fault that the single payer option was killed, it's the health care companies paying politicians... Mike Ross is one...turns out republicans aren't the only politicians that health care companies own.

We've had this discussion you and I before, but I don't think it's fair to state this as fact. The democrats did not have a filibuster proof majority and they didn't have unanimous support within their own party on UHC.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

it's not their fault that the single payer option was killed, it's the health care companies paying politicians... Mike Ross is one...turns out republicans aren't the only politicians that health care companies own.

We've had this discussion you and I before, but I don't think it's fair to state this as fact. The democrats did not have a filibuster proof majority and they didn't have unanimous support within their own party on UHC.

So, we agree, that the democrats didn't fully support the UHC.

[Popeye_Card]

We're already paying for universal healthcare; we're simply doing it in the most expensive, inefficient, financially destructive and medically risky way imaginable. If you show up to the ER bleeding/stroking/cancering, you'll get treated. The bill will be 5 or 6 figures. Much much higher than the cost of preventative health care that could have helped prevent your stroke/heart attack/diabetes/cancer.

Your choices are: Pay, and your entire family is financially ruined. Not pay, and your life enters debt collector hell, maybe file for bankruptcy at some point, and maybe never get a house or good job again. Oh, and every other person who receives health care (ie, all of us) ultimately foot the bill in terms of higher costs.

This is pretty much the reason even as a fiscal conservative that I would like to see some plans put together for how we could make UHC work.

See my plans in another thread (not sure which one--they all run together).

Three-pronged approach to health care and insurance:

a.) Government runs emergency care (i.e. ER type stuff) and public health stuff like immunizations.
b.) Traditional health insurance covers the longer-term diseases, etc. (cancer, whatnot). In part paid by your employer like it currently is, only costs should go down since ER stuff is cut out.
c.) Wellness clinics for checkup/prevention are in part paid by your employer, otherwise paid for you. I see this as "routine maintenance"--you wouldn't use your car insurance to pay for an oil change, why would you want health insurance to cover your health maintenance?

There's still a few gaps (like how do you have babies? basic coverage under a., more extensive coverage under b.?). But I think this is more sensible in general than the cluster [expletive] we have now.

[cards2468]

Fire dept. aren't a national program, most police presence isn't federal either.

Military. FBI. FCC. FDA. (Granted more than a few fiscal conservatives would like to axe the last two). What is fundamentally different from the United States implementing something like health care of police protection and your state doing it?

The way I see it, a community is a group of people working together to exist. A portion of currency is taken to put into a community pot where the community as a whole decides what they want to fund for the community.

Are we not a community as a country though? If MO or whatever state you live in decided they were going to legalize gambling and pot and use the tax revenue to do a hybrid/canada-type health care system where 80% of all health care costs were covered by the state of MO, would you support that? If so, why would that be different than if the Federal Government made the same decision? If it's about a community decision, Two thirds of Americans would prefer universal health care to our current system.

I don't see health care as a natural right

Fiscal concerns aside, what do you see as natural rights of a human and of an American? Is police and fire protection a natural right and why? Should people have to choose between life and death because of financial ability? Again, honest questions. Not attacking, not asking you to justify, just trying to understand.

I rarely see military rolling down the street, but in terms of policing the citizens, it would be Federal Martials that would fit that category. Really we don't see them that often except when a criminal shoots them to death in St. Louis.

If the people want UHC, then push for it. As for getting politicians to stop letting health care companies get in their pockets, well if you find a solution to that, let us know.

I don't believe health care is a natural right. Same as I don't believe national defense, police forces or fire departments are natural rights, but if that's what the people want, that's what the people get. I'm a heartless engineer, so forgive me for my lack of empathy, but I don't feel the government is obligated to provide health care. I'd just as soon let people die than make it a right that the government should care for them. But as it is, we're all paying for people who are not insured and it costs a lot more than if they would have been cared for in the first place, just as heyzeus said, which is my only reason for supporting a system that would provide care and reduce the cost for all of us.