Not getting hired over lack of experience

[sighyoung]

About the 5th teaching job where I've blown them away in the interviews, my expertiese in EVERY area of Theology impresses them, which implies an ability to teach ANY CLASS they need. They say I have the perfect personality, tone, presence, and classroom management (when I've taught a class as part of the interview process), and will be a phenominal teacher.

but again, they go with someone with experience, despite the obvious upside they readily admit I show.

I've grilled these people, and they all say the only single thing missing is experience. And please call them when I have even a year a subbing under my belt... so showing a movie to a class here and there and not having to acomplish much occasionally will make me a better year-long teacher? That's BS

Earth to Catholic schools: YOU CAN'T GET EXPERIENCE IF NO ONE HIRES YOU.

this is why I'm considering a move to public schools.

CAN YOU TEACH IZTURIS TO HIT?

He's a theologian, not a miracle worker.

[JCShutout]

I can't speak for theology as a field of education, but it seems like one that is not going to be in as high demand in general. I would assume the people being replaced were hired some time ago, and in general a lot has changed. My mother was a junior college professor, and when she was hired 25 years ago all she needed was a PhD. Now to get hired at her same junior college, applicants have basically needed multiple published papers in their field to get hired. Again, this is only a junior college, but I think parallels can be drawn to high school.

One was hired 2 years ago, the other, 3. Sure the demand isn't as high, but neither is the supply. Since these schools are Catholic, they want to ensure their religion/theology departments are decent, so they can maintain their identity. (They're run by the archdiosee or a religious order) Again, I would think expertiese would be preferable to the ability to be slightly better (at best) right away at running a class.

And I really don't understand how teaching a class where I prepared everything is less of an indicator than subing, where someone else set up my daily agenda, and I'm probably not expected to get much done other than keep them quiet and nonviolent.

So I would really suggest either getting a masters in education or just subbing high school for a year. With your other qualifications, all you need is to be able to put down some form of experience. Again, doesn't make complete sense, but the market is a lot fuller now than it was even 10 years ago.

Sure I could try to sub, but is there consistent income in that? I have to, ya know, pay the bills and stuff. MAs cost money too. So I could get a job to cover my MA... and then not have the availablility to sub??

Seems like a rediculous system where you have to choose from actually knowing what the hell you're talking about, or being slightly better (at best) at, "classroom management" while not being an expert at what you're teaching...

[JCShutout]

I just looked and talked to someone in the Stl public schools dept concerning subbing. Apparantly, its doable... hmm... maybe with a second, weekend job... hmm...

[BenNX74205]

And I really don't understand how teaching a class where I prepared everything is less of an indicator than subing, where someone else set up my daily agenda, and I'm probably not expected to get much done other than keep them quiet and nonviolent.

I never said it was a better indicator of your abilities. I said that experience is important, and that you should get it any way you can. Education is a system where schools want to know you have had some experience in actually being in a classroom more than once. So they know you're at least committed to the idea of teaching that level of school. This makes a lot of sense for schools, because they don't want to have to hire someone again next year when you decide that teaching isn't what you want to do. Having done it already shows you want to continue doing it, and makes it more likely you will stay if hired.

Sure I could try to sub, but is there consistent income in that? I have to, ya know, pay the bills and stuff. MAs cost money too. So I could get a job to cover my MA... and then not have the availablility to sub??

Seems like a rediculous system where you have to choose from actually knowing what the hell you're talking about, or being slightly better (at best) at, "classroom management" while not being an expert at what you're teaching...

If you get on the rosters to sub at multiple districts, or one large district, you can get fairly steady work. And if you just want to get the MA, you can do it through Maryville or some other local college through night classes and stuff. That's actually what most teachers do, so they teach in the day and do their work at night. No reason that can't work the same with a 9-5 job in another field.

EDIT: And I'm mildly offended that you think all you get from an education masters/specialization is "slightly better (at best) classroom management." There's a lot more to being a teacher than being able to prepare one sample lesson or taking over for a teacher for a few minutes on an interview.

[lukethedrifter]

And the real answer to your problem is....

[SHOW]

Burke

[JCShutout]

That's actually what most teachers do, so they teach in the day and do their work at night. No reason that can't work the same with a 9-5 job in another field.

It wasn't the hours which worried me, but the consistent (or possible lack thereof) income. I can understand they want someone committed, but

EDIT: And I'm mildly offended that you think all you get from an education masters/specialization is "slightly better (at best) classroom management." There's a lot more to being a teacher than being able to prepare one sample lesson or taking over for a teacher for a few minutes on an interview.

Sure, and I'm partly ranting/frustrated, but there is also a lot more to teaching than what you learn in an education degree. Having the education I do, I can offer the students a more updated lession on the current trends in the field, I have more outside/abstract resources to use to emphasize/expand points and ideas, and I know enough about so many areas that I have more flexability to teach any course they offer (and give them more than just what is in their textbook). I can also do a much better job at applying each area of theology to other areas they are/have studied, allowing for a fuller understanding of the subject.

I think also there is a bit of a difference between Theology and other teaching disciplines, as its not like you need to learn Catholic Theology to get a good job. A lot of it is about getting the kids to enjoy/experience it, and I have 6 and 1/2 years youth ministry experience, which they (people interviewing me) all rave about. I have people in the field who have worked with Catholic high schools who said as recently as a couple of years ago that teaching experience wasn't too big a deal. Things may have changed, but I think you have to respect my reasoning.

I know how much I knew before my MA to now. The following areas (only ones listed are the ones which normally get taught in high school) were significantly aided by my MA in Theology:

Scripture:
-Psalms
-OT Prophets
-Hebrew Scriptures in general
-NT/Christian Scriptures - (3 ways, focusing on the historical Jesus/gospels, focusing on the letters, and Paul, or the whole kit and kaboodle)
-hermaneutics (history of interpretation/interpretation theories/models)

In each of those fields, I can focus on the history surrounding the specific text, and the text itself.

Church history:
-Early church (with or without feminist revisionist history)
-Middle ages, (with or without feminist revisionist history)
-Age of reformers
-Trent to Vatican II
-Vatican II in context of the rest of church history

I also have enough philosophical training to deal with and cover adequately people like Augustine and Aquinas and Chardin etc.

Moral Theology (history and current issues)
-Ethics and War (just war, pacificst models, history, etc.)

Sacraments (history and current issues)

Additionally, I have a lot of youth ministry experience, which they see (rave) as important.

I'm well qualified to teach other things, but without my MA in Theo, the above areas would be significantly lacking.

And the real answer to your problem is....

[SHOW]

Burke

He doesn't know enough about me for me to worry yet.

[BenNX74205]

You are more than qualified to teach any theology position out there. You have learned more on that subject that most people know about any subject. I am in no way questioning your academic credentials. But the main thing you learn from an education masters/certification course is how to take what you know and turn it into a curriculum. People need experience, guidance, and instruction in how to teach. You need to learn things like how different students learn, how much material you can actually cover in a given time period, what all you need to cover versus what you would like to cover, and many other things that you learn through instruction and practice. These aren't things that teachers inherently know how to do.

If you had started learning about theology when you went in to your masters program, you probably wouldn't have done a very good job, and it could easily have overwhelmed you. But you had learned about the subject before and practiced the things you needed to know to succeed at the next level. It's the same thing with teaching. Many people could probably be alright teachers without any instruction or expertise, but it can easily be overwhelming. The degree/certification gives people an opportunity to get experience in a controlled environment and build the necessary knowledge/skills needed to be a successful teacher.

You probably have a lot to offer students, but I don't think it's that different from any other field. Teaching is more than getting kids to enjoy the learning process. You and I both know that we've had a lot of teachers that failed miserably in that department. But we still learned from those teachers. I disagree with people that say experience doesn't matter, because it does. It might not be the number one factor in the actual classroom setting, but in all the other stuff that goes into being a teacher outside the few hours a day actually teaching, that experience and knowledge is critical.

[phins]

Classroom experience is incredibly important when looking to hire a teacher. I see your argument that you can't get experience without a job, but if you had been in an education program undergrad, or done a masters in education program, part of that work would involve student teaching while paired with a mentor teacher. They give you a lot of guidance, and schools really do want to know you can actually perform in front of the classroom, and convey the information in that setting.

I'm not saying you wouldn't make a great teacher, but the requirement for experience is something all schools basically look for. If you had an education certification/masters, you would be able to get hired without having "taught" anywhere. You just need experience in a classroom. Just get on the substitute roster for the next year in St. Louis County--all you need is 60 hours of undergrad college credit to qualify. You'll make some money, you'll get some experience, and you will be MUCH more "hirable" in a very short time.

I know a lot about this stuff because the future Mrs. NX74205 did an undergrad education program and received her certification. Experience is the most powerful commodity a teaching candidate can offer to a school looking to hire.

Word for word...except the part about Mrs. NX74205. I SWEAR that wasn't me

[M1IRONMIKE]

About the 5th teaching job where I've blown them away in the interviews, my expertiese in EVERY area of Theology impresses them, which implies an ability to teach ANY CLASS they need. They say I have the perfect personality, tone, presence, and classroom management (when I've taught a class as part of the interview process), and will be a phenominal teacher.

but again, they go with someone with experience, despite the obvious upside they readily admit I show.

I've grilled these people, and they all say the only single thing missing is experience. And please call them when I have even a year a subbing under my belt... so showing a movie to a class here and there and not having to acomplish much occasionally will make me a better year-long teacher? That's BS

Earth to Catholic schools: YOU CAN'T GET EXPERIENCE IF NO ONE HIRES YOU.

this is why I'm considering a move to public schools.

CAN YOU TEACH IZTURIS TO HIT?

He's a theologian, not a miracle worker.

True enough but maybe given his relationship with the lord he could ask for a miracle

[JCShutout]

Look Ben, I know certification, education classes would greatly improve teaching ability, I was just ranting illogically because people in the field who worked closely with schools were telling me exp wasn't necessary (and it isn't), and all applauded my move towards the MA (better expertiese, more flexability for possible phd etc.)

I'm POed because I just want to teach the damn subject that I know well, and I'm sick of going back to school when 2 years ago people were getting hired to teach Theology with a BA in Theology and Computer Science. 2 Fing years ago! No certification. No experience. Nothing, and schools were happy with those teachers.

Plus there just aren't as many openings this time around.

I don't mind the hard work of 2 jobs and night school... been doing that at the MA level for 3 years, undergrad level for 2 more. Just worried I would be unemployed, not be able to pay my bills, run up a huge CC bill, etc. I feel better knowing subing is a decent option. If I can't cover my bills and tuition, then I can't get certified. See where I'm going?

You have a parent and a fiance who are/were teachers, so this is probably common knowledge to you, but it isn't to me. I'm angry and frustrated because I'm also getting told that I'll be a wonderful teacher, and I just need subing experience. This somehow evolved into certification arguements. I know that will help. I doubt subing really will. It seems like fake experience.

I didn't mean to say experience didn't matter or that it wasn't important, but I think its easier to get teaching experience than it is to be an expert in an entire field, especailly when subing counts as that experience.