Our financial system is crumbling this week.

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Arthur Dent
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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by Arthur Dent »

maddash wrote:The NPR piece's position ... never included statements about pinning all the blame on borrowers.
It did so quite explicitly. Quoting:

"That chart is the most striking piece of evidence that I have that what is happening to us is something that goes way beyond toxic assets in banks. It's something that has little to do with the mechanics of mortgage securitization, or ethics on Wall Street, or anything else," Beim says. "It says: The problem is us. The problem is not the banks, greedy though they may be, overpaid though they may be. The problem is us."

We have overborrowed, Beim says: "We've been living very high on the hog. Our living standard has been rising dramatically in the last 25 years. And we have been borrowing much of the money to make that prosperity happen."

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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by Michael »

PujolJunkie wrote:I can sum 150 pages up in one sentence:

This [expletive] all started when they wanted to stop circulating pennies.
haha

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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

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Arthur Dent wrote:
maddash wrote:The NPR piece's position ... never included statements about pinning all the blame on borrowers.
It did so quite explicitly. Quoting:

"That chart is the most striking piece of evidence that I have that what is happening to us is something that goes way beyond toxic assets in banks. It's something that has little to do with the mechanics of mortgage securitization, or ethics on Wall Street, or anything else," Beim says. "It says: The problem is us. The problem is not the banks, greedy though they may be, overpaid though they may be. The problem is us."

We have overborrowed, Beim says: "We've been living very high on the hog. Our living standard has been rising dramatically in the last 25 years. And we have been borrowing much of the money to make that prosperity happen."
That's Beim's position, not NPR's.

Arthur Dent
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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by Arthur Dent »

maddash wrote:That's Beim's position, not NPR's.
Haha. Nice dodge.

Look, this is pointless personal stuff. I'd much rather discuss the economic crisis than who said what. And yes, blaming everything on borrowers without reference to the causes of that borrowing has been absolutely typical. That NPR piece is a perfect example.

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Hungary Jack
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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

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lukethedrifter wrote:
maddash wrote:
Arthur Dent wrote:
maddash wrote:These are all strawmen arguments. Or at the very least, I think it's unfair to tag them onto responses to people here who clearly don't share those same views.
I don't think so. If people want to disagree, that's fine. They can explain why.
I'd love to see some examples of people who, as you say, are blaming all this on greedy borrowers. It certainly wasn't being presented that way in the NPR piece. Even Beim's part never represented borrowers as "greedy", simply that Americans have overborrowed. The household debt to GDP ratio backs that statement.
Every person I work with blames the problem on greedy borrowers. I guess that is an exaggeration since I haven't surveyed every one but that is the constant chatter I hear.

Oh, and HJ's tone certainly suggests it.

Infer what you wish from the "tone" of my electronic voice, but I have never used that adjective to describe those individuals who made bad decisions, and never will. And neither is it a morality play.

Forrest Gump said "stupid is what stupid does." So I am accusing who willingly took loans that were far beyond their financial means of being stupid. It happens. I do stupid things all the time.

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Hungary Jack
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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

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Michael wrote:
PujolJunkie wrote:I can sum 150 pages up in one sentence:

This [expletive] all started when they wanted to stop circulating pennies.
haha
That is funny.

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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by greenback44 »

Warren Buffett's letter is out:

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2008ltr.pdf
Local governments are going to face far tougher fiscal problems in the future than they have to date.
The pension liabilities I talked about in last year’s report will be a huge contributor to these woes. Many cities
and states were surely horrified when they inspected the status of their funding at yearend 2008. The gap between
assets and a realistic actuarial valuation of present liabilities is simply staggering.

When faced with large revenue shortfalls, communities that have all of their bonds insured will be
more prone to develop “solutions” less favorable to bondholders than those communities that have uninsured
bonds held by local banks and residents. Losses in the tax-exempt arena, when they come, are also likely to be
highly correlated among issuers. If a few communities stiff their creditors and get away with it, the chance that
others will follow in their footsteps will grow. What mayor or city council is going to choose pain to local
citizens in the form of major tax increases over pain to a far-away bond insurer?
Though Berkshire’s credit is pristine – we are one of only seven AAA corporations in the country – our
cost of borrowing is now far higher than competitors with shaky balance sheets but government backing. At the
moment, it is much better to be a financial cripple with a government guarantee than a Gibraltar without one.
The investment world has gone from underpricing risk to overpricing it. This change has not been
minor; the pendulum has covered an extraordinary arc. A few years ago, it would have seemed unthinkable that
yields like today’s could have been obtained on good-grade municipal or corporate bonds even while risk-free
governments offered near-zero returns on short-term bonds and no better than a pittance on long-terms. When the
financial history of this decade is written, it will surely speak of the Internet bubble of the late 1990s and the
housing bubble of the early 2000s. But the U.S. Treasury bond bubble of late 2008 may be regarded as almost
equally extraordinary.

Clinging to cash equivalents or long-term government bonds at present yields is almost certainly a
terrible policy if continued for long. Holders of these instruments, of course, have felt increasingly comfortable –
in fact, almost smug – in following this policy as financial turmoil has mounted. They regard their judgment
confirmed when they hear commentators proclaim “cash is king,” even though that wonderful cash is earning
close to nothing and will surely find its purchasing power eroded over time.

Approval, though, is not the goal of investing. In fact, approval is often counter-productive because it
sedates the brain and makes it less receptive to new facts or a re-examination of conclusions formed earlier.
Beware the investment activity that produces applause; the great moves are usually greeted by yawns.
Derivatives are dangerous. They have dramatically increased the leverage and risks in our financial
system. They have made it almost impossible for investors to understand and analyze our largest commercial
banks and investment banks. They allowed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to engage in massive misstatements of
earnings for years. So indecipherable were Freddie and Fannie that their federal regulator, OFHEO, whose more
than 100 employees had no job except the oversight of these two institutions, totally missed their cooking of the
books...

Improved “transparency” – a favorite remedy of politicians, commentators and financial regulators for
averting future train wrecks – won’t cure the problems that derivatives pose. I know of no reporting mechanism
that would come close to describing and measuring the risks in a huge and complex portfolio of derivatives.
Auditors can’t audit these contracts, and regulators can’t regulate them. When I read the pages of “disclosure” in
10-Ks of companies that are entangled with these instruments, all I end up knowing is that I don’t know what is
going on in their portfolios (and then I reach for some aspirin).

For a case study on regulatory effectiveness, let’s look harder at the Freddie and Fannie example.
These giant institutions were created by Congress, which retained control over them, dictating what they could
and could not do. To aid its oversight, Congress created OFHEO in 1992, admonishing it to make sure the two
behemoths were behaving themselves. With that move, Fannie and Freddie became the most intensely-regulated
companies of which I am aware, as measured by manpower assigned to the task.

On June 15, 2003, OFHEO (whose annual reports are available on the Internet) sent its 2002 report to
Congress – specifically to its four bosses in the Senate and House, among them none other than Messrs. Sarbanes
and Oxley. The report’s 127 pages included a self-congratulatory cover-line: “Celebrating 10 Years of
Excellence.” The transmittal letter and report were delivered nine days after the CEO and CFO of Freddie had
resigned in disgrace and the COO had been fired. No mention of their departures was made in the letter, even
while the report concluded, as it always did, that “Both Enterprises were financially sound and well managed.”
In truth, both enterprises had engaged in massive accounting shenanigans for some time. Finally, in
2006, OFHEO issued a 340-page scathing chronicle of the sins of Fannie that, more or less, blamed the fiasco on
every party but – you guessed it – Congress and OFHEO...

A normal stock or bond trade is completed in a few days with one party getting its cash, the other its
securities. Counterparty risk therefore quickly disappears, which means credit problems can’t accumulate. This
rapid settlement process is key to maintaining the integrity of markets. That, in fact, is a reason for NYSE and
NASDAQ shortening the settlement period from five days to three days in 1995.

Derivatives contracts, in contrast, often go unsettled for years, or even decades, with counterparties
building up huge claims against each other. “Paper” assets and liabilities – often hard to quantify – become
important parts of financial statements though these items will not be validated for many years. Additionally, a
frightening web of mutual dependence develops among huge financial institutions. Receivables and payables by
the billions become concentrated in the hands of a few large dealers who are apt to be highly-leveraged in other
ways as well. Participants seeking to dodge troubles face the same problem as someone seeking to avoid venereal
disease: It’s not just whom you sleep with, but also whom they are sleeping with.

Sleeping around, to continue our metaphor, can actually be useful for large derivatives dealers because
it assures them government aid if trouble hits. In other words, only companies having problems that can infect
the entire neighborhood – I won’t mention names – are certain to become a concern of the state (an outcome, I’m
sad to say, that is proper). From this irritating reality comes The First Law of Corporate Survival for ambitious
CEOs who pile on leverage and run large and unfathomable derivatives books: Modest incompetence simply
won’t do; it’s mindboggling screw-ups that are required.

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Hungary Jack
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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by Hungary Jack »

Gotta love the straight talk from Warren Buffett:

At the moment, it is much better to be a financial cripple with a government guarantee than a Gibraltar without one.

Derivatives are dangerous...Improved “transparency” – a favorite remedy of politicians, commentators and financial regulators for averting future train wrecks – won’t cure the problems that derivatives pose...A normal stock or bond trade is completed in a few days with one party getting its cash, the other its securities. Counterparty risk therefore quickly disappears, which means credit problems can’t accumulate...Derivatives contracts, in contrast, often go unsettled for years, or even decades, with counterparties building up huge claims against each other. “Paper” assets and liabilities – often hard to quantify – become important parts of financial statements though these items will not be validated for many years. A frightening web of mutual dependence develops among huge financial institutions... Participants seeking to dodge troubles face the same problem as someone seeking to avoid venereal disease: It’s not just whom you sleep with, but also whom they are sleeping with.


Some interesting thoughts on addressing the housing crisis:
By Eric A. Posner and Luigi Zingales

The housing crisis threatens to destroy hundreds of billions of dollars of value by causing homeowners with negative equity to walk away from their houses. A house in foreclosure is worth 30 to 50 percent less than a house that a homeowner either retains or sells on the market, and a foreclosed house damages neighboring property values as well. We advocate a reform of Chapter 13 that would allow homeowners to strip down the value of their mortgages in a prepackaged bankruptcy. Such a plan would give homeowners an incentive to keep or resell their homes, thus reducing the market value loss of homes while protecting the effective value of creditors’ interests. Two further key elements of the plan are that it uses prices based on the average house price in a particular ZIP code, which reduces moral hazard; and it is automated, requiring only a rubber stamp by a bankruptcy judge or other official, thus preserving judicial resources. Other plans, including that of the Obama administration, are compared.

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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

Arthur Dent wrote:
maddash wrote:These are all strawmen arguments. Or at the very least, I think it's unfair to tag them onto responses to people here who clearly don't share those same views.
I don't think so. If people want to disagree, that's fine. They can explain why.
Do you not put any blame on the consumer? I certainly don't give the banks a free pass, and would probably blame them as much as the buyer. But, to not hold the individual accountable for taking out a loan he/she couldn't afford simply because someone on the TV said housing would continue to go up is ludicrous.

Like I said, I think the banks deserve to fail and sadly the government won't let them. I mean, it's just assanine that banks were lending 250K to someone bringing in 1800/month after taxes. But, I digress. My whole point is that it's just as assanine and probably a little bit more so for a borrower to try to get 250K while bringing in 1800/month because the bank who stands to make a lot of money, a realtor who stands to make a lot of money, and some guy on the TV all said it was a good idea. Immediately what the bank said and what the realtor said should be thrown out as they have a financial interest in seeing you borrow more money. So, you're left with making a 250K decision based on what the televisions telling you, and that's a lot of faith to be putting in some talking head possibly thousands of miles away that you've never met before making blanket statements...... And, sadly that faith proved to be misguided..... If people didn't immediately throw out the first two sources (bank and realtor) then I have zero sympathy for them.

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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by Arthur Dent »

AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:
Arthur Dent wrote:
maddash wrote:These are all strawmen arguments. Or at the very least, I think it's unfair to tag them onto responses to people here who clearly don't share those same views.
I don't think so. If people want to disagree, that's fine. They can explain why.
Do you not put any blame on the consumer? I certainly don't give the banks a free pass, and would probably blame them as much as the buyer. But, to not hold the individual accountable for taking out a loan he/she couldn't afford simply because someone on the TV said housing would continue to go up is ludicrous.
There's a spectrum. Some people undoubtedly took on loans that made no sense, while other people have taken affordable mortgages only to find themselves underwater when prices crashed. Anyway, the reasons for the large scale increase in borrowing are structural in nature and not due to changes in personality.

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