Memo to Pols: Competence Trumps Morality

[GatewaySnayke]

How is it hypocritical to point out hypocrisy?

I never said that it was hypocritical to point out hypocrisy. What I did say was that it was hypocritical for the tolerance-first crowd to abandon that stance, throw on their birthday suits and have a party.

Your side has been heaping invective on us for decades.

My side? Do you even know what my side is?

And has taken some sort of moral "high ground".

Wrong.

And we point this out and we're chided for being 'intolerant'. Yeah, liberals are famous for their tolerance. We're mocked for it, in fact. So bear with us if more than a few of us seem fed up to here with the [expletive].

I'm not sure what to say. It's my opinion that most of the stuff about liberals being TOO tolerant is poppycock, and the 'side' you claim I'm on has done a lot to push that. But I just think this is an instance where some people need to think about what they wrote and ask if that reflects well on their beliefs. Should the outrage be that a guy was apparently trying to solicit gay bathroom sex when he is an important member of our government OR should the outrage be that a guy was apparently trying to solicit gay bathroom sex when he is a member of the Republican Party? It's fun watching people get knocked off their pedastal isn't it?!

[GatewaySnayke]

So bear with us if more than a few of us seem fed up to here with the [expletive].

Spot on, pops. Seems to me, Snayke, you don't like it that another one of your "guys" screwed up again, because there was no inaccurate wording in the "holier than thou" thread. We're not talking about just any public figure who's fallen from grace in his personal life, we're talking about a senator who soapboxed and tried to legislate against said behavior.

Again with 'my side' huh? I feel compelled to ask -- are we in gangs? Is independent thought allowed? If Craig is one of my "guys" then I did a poor job of defending him. Rather than say that this sort of thing makes my day, I shake my head in disturbance that the anti-gay legislation Republicans continue doing things like these.

[maddash]

How is it hypocritical to point out hypocrisy?

I never said that it was hypocritical to point out hypocrisy. What I did say was that it was hypocritical for the tolerance-first crowd to abandon that stance, throw on their birthday suits and have a party.

Come on Snayke, let's be honest here, there are different kinds of hypocrisies and tolerance. I think when most liberals ask for tolerance it's more about protecting the civil rights of groups, not tolerance for every single act known to man. If a member of Congress was adamantly proactive in marginalizing a group of Americans, and then gets outed as being a closet member of the group he's been trying to marginalize... then no, there doesn't need to be any tolerance of his actions or the person himself. "Liberal tolerance" isn't a catchall where everyone is just given a break, so there's no stance being abandoned. There was no stance on tolerating anything and everything to begin with.

[GatewaySnayke]

How is it hypocritical to point out hypocrisy?

I never said that it was hypocritical to point out hypocrisy. What I did say was that it was hypocritical for the tolerance-first crowd to abandon that stance, throw on their birthday suits and have a party.

Come on Snayke, let's be honest here, there are different kinds of hypocrisies and tolerance. I think when most liberals ask for tolerance it's more about protecting the civil rights of groups, not tolerance for every single act known to man. If a member of Congress was adamantly proactive in marginalizing a group of Americans, and then gets outed as being a closet member of the group he's been trying to marginalize... then no, there doesn't need to be any tolerance of his actions or the person himself. "Liberal tolerance" isn't a catchall where everyone is just given a break, so there's no stance being abandoned. There was no stance on tolerating anything and everything to begin with.

I fully realize that, and I was right in guessing that this point would be brought up. I'm not arguing that he should get some sort of break from anyone -- that's not really my idea of tolerance. Instead, I argue that he should be removed from Congress and given help for the fact that he is delusional and in deep denial. To the gay thing, I say "that's your choice." But there's clearly some bigger issues with this guy than his homosexuality. Let's start with the way he tried to abuse his power...

[maddash]

How is it hypocritical to point out hypocrisy?

I never said that it was hypocritical to point out hypocrisy. What I did say was that it was hypocritical for the tolerance-first crowd to abandon that stance, throw on their birthday suits and have a party.

Come on Snayke, let's be honest here, there are different kinds of hypocrisies and tolerance. I think when most liberals ask for tolerance it's more about protecting the civil rights of groups, not tolerance for every single act known to man. If a member of Congress was adamantly proactive in marginalizing a group of Americans, and then gets outed as being a closet member of the group he's been trying to marginalize... then no, there doesn't need to be any tolerance of his actions or the person himself. "Liberal tolerance" isn't a catchall where everyone is just given a break, so there's no stance being abandoned. There was no stance on tolerating anything and everything to begin with.

I fully realize that, and I was right in guessing that this point would be brought up. I'm not arguing that he should get some sort of break from anyone -- that's not really my idea of tolerance. Instead, I argue that he should be removed from Congress and given help for the fact that he is delusional and in deep denial. To the gay thing, I say "that's your choice." But there's clearly some bigger issues with this guy than his homosexuality. Let's start with the way he tried to abuse his power...

Yeah, but that's just basic human sympathy you're asking for - I don't think any group has a patent on that.

[Hungary Jack]

Jack, while I certainly agree with your stance and hope that this man is removed from Congress, I hope you and others will find it in your <3's to forgive him. (And no, there's none of Snayke's trademark snark in there either) While Craig's actions contradict the way he voted, I'm guessing he is truly gay or bi. Maybe this is an out for him? What I do know is, while Craig is a hypocrite for what he did, it's kinda hypocritical of our left-leaning members to throw out subject headlines such as "Another Holier-Than-Thou" or somehow finding cause for celebration in this. As I recall, one of the trademarks of being liberal is practicing tolerance and I found those kinds of words in the thread the other day INtolerant. Did Craig do something specifically to you? Has he slighted you in some way? He messes up...and you take joy in that? Weird. I didn't find anything remotely funny about that, nor did it put a smile on my face. I found it disturbing.

I'll end with this: Hillary or Obama better not screw anything up between now and next November. As Jon Stewart says, it's not so funny when it's your guy.

You are inferring a lot from my words, most of which is well wide of the mark.

I am not celebrating any individual's downfall here. I am using Craig as an example of what I perceive to be repeated incidences of where some pol who claims to occupy a moral higher ground has run afoul of the very morals they claim to uphold.

I don't ascribe this to any party, but my perception (perhaps unfounded) is that these transgressors fall into the Republican right category more often than not. It is no secret that the Republican Party has largely pandered to the religious right ever since Ronnie retired and George H Bush uttered "family values" and the Republican National Convention way back in 1988. George W has continued this pattern.

But I don't really subscribe to any party, as I have voted Republican, Democrat and Independent during my voting lifetime. I am an economist, which means I make decisions using hard data, cost-benefit analysis, and incremental analysis. To be honest, I'd probably be a card-carrying Republican if they had retained the Reagan mold, but I see very little room for "morality" in management and leadership in government and business.

Sorry you found the headline personally offensive. But my original post makes no mention of political party or affiliation. It only points out the very tenuous position of those who claim morality as a basis of leadership. And I don't want that in my government, because "morality" as it has come to be defined in the current context has little to do with whether or not we make more guns or more butter.

[TimeForGuinness]

Did Craig do something specifically to you? Has he slighted you in some way? He messes up...and you take joy in that?

Does something specific have to happen to me for me to get angry at a politician who is limiting the rights of people who have done nothing wrong? Shouldn't bad decisions feel slighted even if it doesn't affect you? I don't know what you mean by "messing up"...unless you mean that he messed up by not being true to himself.

[haltz]

I don't know what you mean by "messing up"...unless you mean that he messed up by not being true to himself.

Yeah, I personally don't see anything bad about dancing on this guy's grave. I love this stuff. Maybe if he actually did something wrong I'd feel bad about that.

[Arthur Dent]

I agree that claims about personal morality are a poor basis for leadership, but I don't think morality is irrelevant to public policy. It can't just be reduced to maximizing efficiency. For example, my main objection to the war in Iraq is that it is immoral regardless of whether it has been carried out competently.

[Hungary Jack]

I don't know what you mean by "messing up"...unless you mean that he messed up by not being true to himself.

Yeah, I personally don't see anything bad about dancing on this guy's grave. I love this stuff. Maybe if he actually did something wrong I'd feel bad about that.

Well it doesn't do much good to celebrate anyone else's failings. I just wish the pols would take notice and stop deluding themselves that they are somehow "different" and capable of occupying a higher moral standard than others. We are all primitive beings, IMO.