Mozeliak: "Some Changes" Coming For Cardinals, But Not A Rebuild

[Fat_Bulldog]

I get the hindsight is 20/20 sentiment regarding past moves.

BUT Arozarena, Garcia, Thomas (that combo will put up a combined 15+ WAR this year). And then Gallen and Alcantara. I think it's highlighted more given how the organization has developed or not developed the guys they hung on to. (To jagtraders point).

However, whatever the situation, whatever they why, the who, the specifics regarding Arozarena, Garcia, Thomas, Gallen and Alcantaras, I think the success they are having should be noticed and recognized. "Well, at the time, Arozarena wasn't expected to be much." That's all fine and good and I guess wouldn't sting quite as much if ANY of the guys we hung onto became something other than a turd. But, the success of Arozarena and others listed above should not be ignored. They have produced what they have produced no matter what anyone's analytics, projections in earlier years told them. What they have done counts and what they have done is so much more than the turds we hung onto. There is a problem, a gap, a flaw somewhere along the way in the organization.

The miss with Carlson, O'Neill, Flaherty.... Was it talent evaluation? Is it talent development? If they had kept all of the the guys originally mentioned above and traded Carlson, O'Neill, Flaherty instead, would the results be opposite?

Just because our analytics and talent evalution told us something different a few years ago, doesn't negate or erase today's production/reality.

[ThatGuy]

15 straight years with a winning record, 4 straight post season appearances, 93 wins and a division title last year. What is this fictitious downward trend you speak of?

Compare the results from about 2000-2015 to the results we've seen from 2015 onward. Of late, we squeak into the playoffs as an afterthought and get booted from the Wild Card game/round. We did ourselves a huge favor by getting to the NLCS in 2019 and proving how inept our offense was by turning in an all-time awful performance. You've likely seen our 1-9 record in the past 10 playoff games. Oh, and have you seen our dismal record this year? I could go on.

Before this stretch, we were a mainstay in the NLCS, and it felt like most years we could reasonably be part of the World Series discussion. Our budget, development record, and on-field performance were all indicative of a team in the upper echelon of the league that wanted to win championships, not just the NL Central.

How is that not obvious to you? Or are you committed to this bit forever where your express intent is to lecture other people for not being good fans like you? Seriously, once upon a time you had a leg to stand on, but you don't anymore.

I don't disagree with TT that down periods can make for a useful reset, but we have zero evidence to back up our front office's ability to successfully navigate the rut they've put themselves in.

[ThatGuy]

And when Danny White and Josh Heupel go take better jobs, Tennessee will start over, and DeMo will still be winning 88 games a year. And we'll still be here complaining about them not taking the one or two steps necessary to get to 95 wins a year.

What point are you making, exactly? That middling consistency is better than volatility that comes with higher highs and lower lows? Genuinely trying to understand your perspective.

[Lesson]

What point are you making, exactly? That middling consistency is better than volatility that comes with higher highs and lower lows? Genuinely trying to understand your perspective.

Danny White is a coattail rider based off of his dad being an AD. Heupel was on decline every year at UCF and Hooker was an anomaly. Barnes needs to be fired. Yassin’s has good gyros, though.

Signed,
UK alum

[dmarx114]

15 straight years with a winning record, 4 straight post season appearances, 93 wins and a division title last year. What is this fictitious downward trend you speak of?

Compare the results from about 2000-2015 to the results we've seen from 2015 onward. Of late, we squeak into the playoffs as an afterthought and get booted from the Wild Card game/round. We did ourselves a huge favor by getting to the NLCS in 2019 and proving how inept our offense was by turning in an all-time awful performance. You've likely seen our 1-9 record in the past 10 playoff games. Oh, and have you seen our dismal record this year? I could go on.

Before this stretch, we were a mainstay in the NLCS, and it felt like most years we could reasonably be part of the World Series discussion. Our budget, development record, and on-field performance were all indicative of a team in the upper echelon of the league that wanted to win championships, not just the NL Central.

How is that not obvious to you? Or are you committed to this bit forever where your express intent is to lecture other people for not being good fans like you? Seriously, once upon a time you had a leg to stand on, but you don't anymore.

I don't disagree with TT that down periods can make for a useful reset, but we have zero evidence to back up our front office's ability to successfully navigate the rut they've put themselves in.

Last year's team had the 3rd most wins since 2006.

[dmarx114]

Things to blame Mo for:

Alcantara
Gallen
Arozarena
A. Garcia
Waino contract this year (which was somewhat defensible, given that Waino was good for most of last year and is a Cardinal legend)
Matz contract
2023 bullpen
Maybe Contreras' pitch calling?
Maybe too much faith in Carlson?
Oli

With as much success as the Cardinals have had under his watch, he does deserve a mulligan for this season.

[Popeye_Card]

I get the hindsight is 20/20 sentiment regarding past moves.

BUT Arozarena, Garcia, Thomas (that combo will put up a combined 15+ WAR this year). And then Gallen and Alcantara. I think it's highlighted more given how the organization has developed or not developed the guys they hung on to. (To jagtraders point).

However, whatever the situation, whatever they why, the who, the specifics regarding Arozarena, Garcia, Thomas, Gallen and Alcantaras, I think the success they are having should be noticed and recognized. "Well, at the time, Arozarena wasn't expected to be much." That's all fine and good and I guess wouldn't sting quite as much if ANY of the guys we hung onto became something other than a turd. But, the success of Arozarena and others listed above should not be ignored. They have produced what they have produced no matter what anyone's analytics, projections in earlier years told them. What they have done counts and what they have done is so much more than the turds we hung onto. There is a problem, a gap, a flaw somewhere along the way in the organization.

The miss with Carlson, O'Neill, Flaherty.... Was it talent evaluation? Is it talent development? If they had kept all of the the guys originally mentioned above and traded Carlson, O'Neill, Flaherty instead, would the results be opposite?

Just because our analytics and talent evalution told us something different a few years ago, doesn't negate or erase today's production/reality.

This isn't even considering Luis Robert who in fairness was never signed by the Cardinals, however the Cardinals have the lamest excuse ever for *not* signing.

To your point though, I would vote that the Cardinals have a bigger talent development issue than talent evaluation. Given, both Garcia and Arozarena got pretty jacked after leaving the Cardinals which I think significantly altered their development trajectory. Would that have happened here? Who knows. But I don't think I have an issue with us picking Carlson and O'Neill's tools over theirs at the time. How they've all developed since then leaves you scratching your head.

[thrill]

And when Danny White and Josh Heupel go take better jobs, Tennessee will start over, and DeMo will still be winning 88 games a year. And we'll still be here complaining about them not taking the one or two steps necessary to get to 95 wins a year.

What point are you making, exactly? That middling consistency is better than volatility that comes with higher highs and lower lows? Genuinely trying to understand your perspective.

There's value in consistency and the Tennessee program that you used as an example of a sports org doing a better job pursuing greatness hasn't achieved anything close to the Cards success under Mo, and if they do achieve that kind of success, you will lose them to better jobs because of the nature of the program and its place in the rapidly evolving college sports landscape. I personally appreciate being good most of the time and not having to go super long stretches without being relevant, like Tennessee.

[Magneto2.0]

I get the hindsight is 20/20 sentiment regarding past moves.

BUT Arozarena, Garcia, Thomas (that combo will put up a combined 15+ WAR this year). And then Gallen and Alcantara. I think it's highlighted more given how the organization has developed or not developed the guys they hung on to. (To jagtraders point).

However, whatever the situation, whatever they why, the who, the specifics regarding Arozarena, Garcia, Thomas, Gallen and Alcantaras, I think the success they are having should be noticed and recognized. "Well, at the time, Arozarena wasn't expected to be much." That's all fine and good and I guess wouldn't sting quite as much if ANY of the guys we hung onto became something other than a turd. But, the success of Arozarena and others listed above should not be ignored. They have produced what they have produced no matter what anyone's analytics, projections in earlier years told them. What they have done counts and what they have done is so much more than the turds we hung onto. There is a problem, a gap, a flaw somewhere along the way in the organization.

The miss with Carlson, O'Neill, Flaherty.... Was it talent evaluation? Is it talent development? If they had kept all of the the guys originally mentioned above and traded Carlson, O'Neill, Flaherty instead, would the results be opposite?

Just because our analytics and talent evalution told us something different a few years ago, doesn't negate or erase today's production/reality.

To be fair, Adolis Garcia and Lane Thomas didn't have a good season until they turned 27 (Lane) and 28 (Garcia). And I also don't buy Lane Thomas being good. This is more than likely a blip.

Carlson could still turn out to be something, he hasn't been terrible, just not what we expected so far, but he's only 24. Arozarena wasn't even in the majors until he was the age Carlson is now. And O'Neill has mostly been injuries, but his 2021 is still better than any season of anyone we traded away you listed except for Alcantara last year.

[MrCrowesGarden]

I can live with the results of the Ozuna trade because aggression is the better play, you won’t win them all but you will win most (Garcia is different because he was sold for cash and Billy D bought a mansion as people were dying of COVID.) We did just get 19 free prospects just by existing as an MLB team so I have no problem moving them