Coronavirus

[cardsfantx]

Seems like that first one is more of a correlation than causation. Doesn’t seem like they’ve even tied the increased calls to known vax receivers. It just establishes there’s been an increase in certain heart related emergency calls after vaccines were rolled out. Which I’d think could also be related to financial stress, overwork, lethargy, poor eating etc… all exacerbated by the pandemic and the impacts of it.

if the article numbers were reversed (meaning more cardiac arrests from infection vs immunization) would that still be your response?

It doesn't mention vaccination status vs unvaccinated status.

that's what the whole damn article was about

and increase of cardiac arrest once vaccines rolled out vs infection alone

[ghostrunner]

It’s also not showing the call data on shortness of breath and other familiar Covid symptoms. So it’s potentially useful for showing cardiac activity related to the vaccine, but not for judging whether it’s worth it or not on balance.

[vinsanity]

Seems like that first one is more of a correlation than causation. Doesn’t seem like they’ve even tied the increased calls to known vax receivers. It just establishes there’s been an increase in certain heart related emergency calls after vaccines were rolled out. Which I’d think could also be related to financial stress, overwork, lethargy, poor eating etc… all exacerbated by the pandemic and the impacts of it.

if the article numbers were reversed (meaning more cardiac arrests from infection vs immunization) would that still be your response?

It doesn't mention vaccination status vs unvaccinated status.

that's what the whole damn article was about

and increase of cardiac arrest once vaccines rolled out vs infection alone

At no point does it mention whether those calls were for patients with vaccine or without.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

Yeah, it’s not a perfect study. But…

… the study aims to evaluate the association between the volume of cardiac arrest and acute coronary syndrome EMS calls in the 16–39-year-old population with potential factors including COVID-19 infection and vaccination rates. An increase of over 25% was detected in both call types during January–May 2021, compared with the years 2019–2020. Using Negative Binomial regression models, the weekly emergency call counts were significantly associated with the rates of 1st and 2nd vaccine doses administered to this age group but were not with COVID-19 infection rates. While not establishing causal relationships, the findings raise concerns regarding vaccine-induced undetected severe cardiovascular side-effects and underscore the already established causal relationship between vaccines and myocarditis, a frequent cause of unexpected cardiac arrest in young individuals.

1. Didn’t know the underlined part was true. Just assumed it was a while ago.

2. Do EMS calls equate to the equivalent dialing 911 and having an ambulance come get you? If so, and could be wrong, but I’d venture a guess this skews the numbers making it look like vaccines are safer than they are…

When I think cardiac arrest, I think of severe pain and death bed type feelings. Fun tidbit, my 11th grade religion teacher told me heart attacks hurt worse than childbirth. Not sure how he knew that. But I consider it gospel to this day. Regardless, the main concern wrt myocarditis and vaccines wasn’t that it was lethal, per se, it was that it posed a serious risk to overall well being. Not necessarily one you’d call an ambulance for. But one that would make you weak for months on end, potentially longer.

But who knows.

3. Looking at figures 1 and 2, they’re kind of misleading. First off, Covid cases are exaggerated by a factor of 5 compared to vaccines. Second, did the availability of vaccines make people feel more comfortable calling an ambulance? Is there a delay in calls for natural infections?

Glad the study exists. But its not going to change any minds. People will see what they want to see in it.

If you think this is too small of a sample size, however, I’d encourage you to look at the datasets used for the fda to grant euas for the vaccines back in 2020 or especially for kids in 2021. Better design and control of studies requires less people. Regardless, we’re talking millions of people in this one vs what like 30k for adults and less than that for kids.

[vinsanity]

Yeah, it’s not a perfect study. But…

… the study aims to evaluate the association between the volume of cardiac arrest and acute coronary syndrome EMS calls in the 16–39-year-old population with potential factors including COVID-19 infection and vaccination rates. An increase of over 25% was detected in both call types during January–May 2021, compared with the years 2019–2020. Using Negative Binomial regression models, the weekly emergency call counts were significantly associated with the rates of 1st and 2nd vaccine doses administered to this age group but were not with COVID-19 infection rates. While not establishing causal relationships, the findings raise concerns regarding vaccine-induced undetected severe cardiovascular side-effects and underscore the already established causal relationship between vaccines and myocarditis, a frequent cause of unexpected cardiac arrest in young individuals.

1. Didn’t know the underlined part was true. Just assumed it was a while ago.

It appears to be plausible

However, the US Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) has concluded that the benefits of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines continue to outweigh the risks of myocarditis and pericarditis even among young people. According to the data in the US Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS), approximately 40.6 cases of myocarditis per million second doses among males and 4.2 cases per million among females have been reported as of 11 June 2021 in persons 12-29 years of age who received the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines. For persons over 30 years of age, the reporting rates were 2.4 and 1.0 per million second doses

That's even lower rates than death in COVID cases.

First off, Covid cases are exaggerated by a factor of 5 compared to vaccines.

Need two sources on that.

Second, did the availability of vaccines make people feel more comfortable calling an ambulance? Is there a delay in calls for natural infections?

The first part is my point; using six months of three years to make a determination is weak, especially when one of the "controls" was split with the pandemic start and the "test" was split with vaccine availability. There's too many factors to say that because the first five months of '21 had more cardiac episodes than the same arbitrary period of '20 and '19 seems awfully arbitrary. Especially when they are only using percentages and not producing real numbers. Again; if it was 4 in '19 and 4 in '20; 5 in '21 is a 25% increase.

The second part is strange, how would the emergency responder know if it was a "natural infection" and what does that term mean?

Glad the study exists. But its not going to change any minds. People will see what they want to see in it.

No kidding

If you think this is too small of a sample size, however, I’d encourage you to look at the datasets used for the fda to grant euas for the vaccines back in 2020 or especially for kids in 2021. Better design and control of studies requires less people. Regardless, we’re talking millions of people in this one vs what like 30k for adults and less than that for kids.

Apples and dump trucks my friend. I'm not arguing for the vaccine; I'm saying this article isn't really saying anything and the fact they aren't linking the study is a little telling for me. The only way you can say emergency calls on 16-39 year olds in Israel is millions of people is if you're including the people who did not call.

I obviously support vaccines because I know enough people in the medical field that know more than I do; I accept there's some risk to the vaccines but I think that risk is far less than the risk of long term COVID-19 infection. Most people thought chicken pox was nothing; wonder how many of them had Shingles? Obviously the prisoner's dilemma applies and I'd rather every other person on Earth get the vaccine so I don't have to take any risk.

If you don't want to be vaccinated or are skeptical of the vaccine, that is your right and your business but there's no need to be out there spreading baseless doubt and falsehoods.

[cardinalkarp]

If you don't want to be vaccinated or are skeptical of the vaccine, that is your right and your business but there's no need to be out there spreading baseless doubt and falsehoods.

So now studies being done by nature are baseless doubt and falsehoods….what the [expletive] ever.

The fact remains for those in that age range COVID is likely going to be a very manageable disease and have a very low risk of hospitalization and death….and w/ that being the ONLY thing in this vaccines arsenal at this point, it becomes a total risk stratification to which imo does not favor the vaccine (it’s nearly all risk w/ little reward).

And again, I’m not trying to convince anyone to do anything. But because I consistently hear “COVID is over” or “nothing we can do about it”, I think it’s still important that as new information comes out about both the disease and the vaccine its important to stay on top of it. I’m not sure of the opinion you hold on how this whole thing was handled, but imo it was about as disastrous as humanly possible, and I’ll be damned if I want to give our government and these corporations the ability to pull this same [expletive].

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

Yeah, it’s not a perfect study. But…

… the study aims to evaluate the association between the volume of cardiac arrest and acute coronary syndrome EMS calls in the 16–39-year-old population with potential factors including COVID-19 infection and vaccination rates. An increase of over 25% was detected in both call types during January–May 2021, compared with the years 2019–2020. Using Negative Binomial regression models, the weekly emergency call counts were significantly associated with the rates of 1st and 2nd vaccine doses administered to this age group but were not with COVID-19 infection rates. While not establishing causal relationships, the findings raise concerns regarding vaccine-induced undetected severe cardiovascular side-effects and underscore the already established causal relationship between vaccines and myocarditis, a frequent cause of unexpected cardiac arrest in young individuals.

1. Didn’t know the underlined part was true. Just assumed it was a while ago.

It appears to be plausible

However, the US Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) has concluded that the benefits of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines continue to outweigh the risks of myocarditis and pericarditis even among young people. According to the data in the US Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS), approximately 40.6 cases of myocarditis per million second doses among males and 4.2 cases per million among females have been reported as of 11 June 2021 in persons 12-29 years of age who received the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines. For persons over 30 years of age, the reporting rates were 2.4 and 1.0 per million second doses

That's even lower rates than death in COVID cases.

First off, Covid cases are exaggerated by a factor of 5 compared to vaccines.

Need two sources on that.

Second, did the availability of vaccines make people feel more comfortable calling an ambulance? Is there a delay in calls for natural infections?

The first part is my point; using six months of three years to make a determination is weak, especially when one of the "controls" was split with the pandemic start and the "test" was split with vaccine availability. There's too many factors to say that because the first five months of '21 had more cardiac episodes than the same arbitrary period of '20 and '19 seems awfully arbitrary. Especially when they are only using percentages and not producing real numbers. Again; if it was 4 in '19 and 4 in '20; 5 in '21 is a 25% increase.

The second part is strange, how would the emergency responder know if it was a "natural infection" and what does that term mean?

Glad the study exists. But its not going to change any minds. People will see what they want to see in it.

No kidding

If you think this is too small of a sample size, however, I’d encourage you to look at the datasets used for the fda to grant euas for the vaccines back in 2020 or especially for kids in 2021. Better design and control of studies requires less people. Regardless, we’re talking millions of people in this one vs what like 30k for adults and less than that for kids.

Apples and dump trucks my friend. I'm not arguing for the vaccine; I'm saying this article isn't really saying anything and the fact they aren't linking the study is a little telling for me. The only way you can say emergency calls on 16-39 year olds in Israel is millions of people is if you're including the people who did not call.

I obviously support vaccines because I know enough people in the medical field that know more than I do; I accept there's some risk to the vaccines but I think that risk is far less than the risk of long term COVID-19 infection. Most people thought chicken pox was nothing; wonder how many of them had Shingles? Obviously the prisoner's dilemma applies and I'd rather every other person on Earth get the vaccine so I don't have to take any risk.

If you don't want to be vaccinated or are skeptical of the vaccine, that is your right and your business but there's no need to be out there spreading baseless doubt and falsehoods.

From your first link, it states it is likely a causal relationship between the vaccine and myocarditis.

Current evidence suggests a likely causal association between myocarditis and the mRNA vaccines

Regarding needing two sources to state that the covid cases are exaggerated by a factor of 5 in the figures....not sure what you want a source for? The covid cases are represented by a line indicative of 10K cases while the vaccines are represented by a line indicative of 50K vaccines. That's just math. If covid were represented by a line indicative of 50K cases, it would shrink by a factor of 5 on the y axis. Similarly, if vaccines were represented by a line indicative of 10K vaccines, it would expand by a factor of 5 on the y axis.

Regarding the point about a delay in calls, I think you misunderstood my point which was that it is certainly possible that the uptick in ems calls shown in figures 1 and 2 could have been caused by a delayed onset in cardiovascular issues caused by the virus.

You have a point that vaccine trials which were presumably well controlled and undoubtedly well designed are a different beast than a review of publicly available data. No doubt. At the same time, most people including the WHO accept there is a relationship between vaccines and myocarditis. What is that relationship? What are the numbers? What are they for 1-10 year olds, 11-20 year olds, 21-30 year olds, etc. I agree overall the vaccine with side effects is safer than covid. I don't necessarily agree that's the case for the entirety of the population, however.

If that's spreading baseless doubt, then so be it. Like I said, I haven't paid much attention the past 6 months or so.

[vinsanity]

Regarding the point about a delay in calls, I think you misunderstood my point which was that it is certainly possible that the uptick in ems calls shown in figures 1 and 2 could have been caused by a delayed onset in cardiovascular issues caused by the virus.

What figures are you referring to? I'm seeing one graph in those two links.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

Regarding the point about a delay in calls, I think you misunderstood my point which was that it is certainly possible that the uptick in ems calls shown in figures 1 and 2 could have been caused by a delayed onset in cardiovascular issues caused by the virus.

What figures are you referring to? I'm seeing one graph in those two links.

Here is the nature study if anyone is interested.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10928-z

[vinsanity]

Regarding the point about a delay in calls, I think you misunderstood my point which was that it is certainly possible that the uptick in ems calls shown in figures 1 and 2 could have been caused by a delayed onset in cardiovascular issues caused by the virus.

What figures are you referring to? I'm seeing one graph in those two links.

Here is the nature study if anyone is interested.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10928-z

Ah thanks. I thought you were referring to the other two articles so now the exaggeration comment makes sense. Sorry for missing that.

You have a point that vaccine trials which were presumably well controlled and undoubtedly well designed are a different beast than a review of publicly available data. No doubt. At the same time, most people including the WHO accept there is a relationship between vaccines and myocarditis. What is that relationship? What are the numbers? What are they for 1-10 year olds, 11-20 year olds, 21-30 year olds, etc. I agree overall the vaccine with side effects is safer than covid. I don't necessarily agree that's the case for the entirety of the population, however.

If that's spreading baseless doubt, then so be it. Like I said, I haven't paid much attention the past 6 months or so.

My apologies, I read it more as vaccine skepticism and that's on me. I've grown tired of it since the Roe decision and baseless comparisons and it can be difficult to read tone. I should have been more careful and for that I apologize.

The questions raise are important and need to be researched because there isn't a single solution and we should research to identify the best we can for everyone. Well put and again, that's on me for not understanding what you had originally meant.